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Vietato
Gold Member

Denmark
1813 Posts

Posted - May 11 2016 :  09:44:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A new boy in class: USA Live Auctions
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/usa-live-auctions

Same fake stuff as with the others.

Regards,
Vietato

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Edited by - Vietato on May 11 2016 11:52:24
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hercules brabazon
Senior Member

United Kingdom
901 Posts

Posted - May 11 2016 :  16:26:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I like the certificate of authenticity for the Braque pastel dated five years after his death!

Edited by - hercules brabazon on May 11 2016 16:26:31
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Vietato
Gold Member

Denmark
1813 Posts

Posted - May 12 2016 :  03:32:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For all to see:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/45355375_pastel-painting-on-paper-by-georges-braque?from=alert&utm_source=SavedAlert&utm_campaign=SearchAlert&utm_medium=email&utm_content=item

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Vietato
Gold Member

Denmark
1813 Posts

Posted - Jun 13 2016 :  02:43:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And yet another fake auctioneer:
Best International Auction:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/search?q=best+international+auction&by_date=2016-06-13T07:38:14.640Z&sort=relevance&dtype=gallery&hasimage=true&type=live&rows=40&addfq=auction_house%3A%28%22Best+International+Auction%22%29

Regards
Vietato

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arb
Senior Member

Netherlands
733 Posts

Posted - Jun 21 2016 :  07:41:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Lovely fakes are to be had, as we all know, on ebay. One of the the newer types is the the flood of old master drawings produced in Italy, where 18th century paper can be easily found in churches, institutions and the like.

What these falsifiers are not good at is diluting their sepia ink. Or not yet! You only need to compare these drawings with authentic ones and you will see they are far too sharp and too fresh:
http://www.ebay.de/sch/malibufineart/m.html?item=371628101198&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562
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arb
Senior Member

Netherlands
733 Posts

Posted - Jun 21 2016 :  08:01:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What never ceases to amaze me is how easily established reputations of auction houses can be blemished with art somewhat alien to them. Here the famous firm Tajan is selling the most horrible fake for 30K plus. It is supposed to be a Breitner. How can you compare this piece of kitsch with his oeuvre and maintain this is a real Breitner worth tens of thousands??? Is Dutch art so strange to their French concepts?
http://www.tajan.com/fr/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?salelot=1636++++++22+&refno=++495804&saletype=
or:
http://fs5.directupload.net/images/160621/zdo2c2yw.png

It is done by the same scoundrel that did this awfull eye-hurting nebbish:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Breitner-George-Hendrik-LEINWANDBILD-BILD-WANDBILD-BILDER-WANDBILDER-/182156285254?hash=item2a695c5546:g:44kAAOSwwPhWiruM


Edited by - arb on Jun 21 2016 11:22:03
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arb
Senior Member

Netherlands
733 Posts

Posted - Jun 28 2016 :  03:26:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Haha, somebody at Tajan's reads here, the blatant fake Breitner has been retracted from the auction..... 30K indeed.......
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Merray
Gold Member

Canada
1379 Posts

Posted - Jun 28 2016 :  13:46:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If that's the case, good job Arb!

www.artmarketspot.com
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arb
Senior Member

Netherlands
733 Posts

Posted - Jun 30 2016 :  01:19:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
One fake I almost would buy is this goatish satyr, broadcasting his arousal to the females by blowing his flute:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/EXQUIS-DESSIN-ANCIEN-FAUNE-VIRIL-17eme-siecle-OLD-MASTER-NUDE-DRAWING-MUSEUM-Q-/222165719085?hash=item33ba1bd82d:g:JkIAAOSwnNBXbplA

He would do nicely over a gentleman's writing table. If authentic, he would cost a few thousand. It is easy to see, but difficult to explain why this horned creature cannot be as old as the paper which has aged considerably. He is just too fresh, too perfect, too crisp.

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Vietato
Gold Member

Denmark
1813 Posts

Posted - Jun 30 2016 :  09:47:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
New fake auctioneers keep popping up on Live Auctioneers.
Now Auctions by Terry
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/auctions-by-terry

Fake oils on paper by Kandinsky Picasso, Miró, Delaunay etc.

Unsigned lithographs by Picasso, Miró, Chagall etc. with an added "interpretive signature". First time I see that term.

Regards,
Vietato

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Edited by - Vietato on Jun 30 2016 09:48:21
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Vietato
Gold Member

Denmark
1813 Posts

Posted - Jun 30 2016 :  10:06:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And I don't think I mentioned
Miami Auction Gallery
Wholesale Art Auctions LLC
US Auction Gallery
--
earlier mentioned:
Best Auction For You, Inc.
Buy Art Auctions, Inc.
Fine Art Online Auctions, LLC
Art Everywhere Auctions Inc.
USA Live Auctions
Best International Auction
Auctions by Terry

That's 10 auctioneers. And I only look at about one in a hundred of the mails I get from Live Auctioneers!

Regards,
Vietato

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Edited by - Vietato on Jun 30 2016 10:20:08
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Vietato
Gold Member

Denmark
1813 Posts

Posted - Jul 07 2016 :  15:54:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And yet another company auctioneering fakes:
L&K Designs Art, Inc.
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/lk-designs-art-inc

Just one example - there are several Mirós with fake signatures:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/46472615_color-lithograph-by-joan-miro?from=alert&utm_source=SavedAlert&utm_campaign=SearchAlert&utm_medium=email&utm_content=item

I wouldn't buy anything from such a place.

Regards,
Vietato

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Vietato
Gold Member

Denmark
1813 Posts

Posted - Jul 21 2016 :  09:51:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For your entertainment:
Miami Auction Gallery -
Miró, Kandinsky, Klee, Léger, Renor etc. original paintings from 1500 $:
https://new.liveauctioneers.com/catalog/91516_miami-auctions-july-26th-consignment-auction

Do Americans think this is okay? I suspect they do.
You wouldn't see something like this going on in the EU for that long.

Regards,
Vietato

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Vietato
Gold Member

Denmark
1813 Posts

Posted - Jul 23 2016 :  09:47:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Earlier in this thread is mentioned a James Ensor fake sold by Walnut House in Brazil.

Live Auctioneers wrote back to me at that time, that when the expert Xavier Tricot declared it a fake, they might consider removing that auction (and he wrote to them personally).

What happened was that it continued (as attributed), just with omission of the sentence about inclusion in Mr. Tricot's upcoming catalogue raisonné:
https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item/39487396_james-ensor-oil-on-cardboard

The seller has changed his name to Fidhan Auctions. Still a lot of terrible fakes: Bacon, Jorn (arrgh, somebody has bid on that!), Basquiat etc. etc.
https://new.liveauctioneers.com/auctioneer/3775/fidhan-auctions

Regards,
Vietato



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Edited by - Vietato on Jul 23 2016 09:51:51
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Merray
Gold Member

Canada
1379 Posts

Posted - Jul 24 2016 :  00:10:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Vietato

Do Americans think this is okay? I suspect they do.




Those got to be Trump voters... -both: the sellers and the buyers there.


www.artmarketspot.com
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arb
Senior Member

Netherlands
733 Posts

Posted - Jul 24 2016 :  04:52:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

The digital sale of fakes is certainly becoming a problem, but it at least has an amusing side to it. I personally have a lot more trouble with the heaps of mediocre work that flood the web. Catawiki, Auctionata and the like all cleverly market quantity rather than quality. The new auction portals that combine dozens of catalogues from auctioneers all over the world are not particularly choosy either. To stay ahead, you cannot ignore them. But it takes more and more time to browse the huge supply of the stuff these sites call art...
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arb
Senior Member

Netherlands
733 Posts

Posted - Jul 24 2016 :  07:19:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I do love the marvellous fake Foujita this very day being sold on Ebay:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/162136608397?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

A real Foujita cat would fetch 20K dollars or more at Mainichi. This one would fool me, if it weren't for the seller's residence: Budapest.
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Vietato
Gold Member

Denmark
1813 Posts

Posted - Jul 24 2016 :  14:16:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you google Live Auctioneers fakes, this topic is the top result, but I guess only a few will read through the posts, so I decided to place a list of all the fake auctioneers in the first post as well.

Regards,
Vietato

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Vietato
Gold Member

Denmark
1813 Posts

Posted - Aug 17 2016 :  10:00:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Also fakes from Auctions Online on Live Auctioneers. Examples:
https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item/46135822_lithograph-by-marc-chagall

https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item/46135410_lithograph-by-henry-matisse

https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item/46242513_wassily-kandinsky-composition-1941-watercolor

Several of the companies are working together, selling the same original work:
https://new.liveauctioneers.com/search?parameters=%7B%22pageSize%22:48,%22page%22:1,%22sort%22:%22-publish_date%22,%22keyword%22:%22emil%20nolde%22,%22status%22:%22online%22,%22type%22:%22pagination%22,%22count%22:25%7D
(attached as jpg also)

Regards,
Vietato




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ATTACHMENTS:
Search_emil_nolde.jpg
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Vietato
Gold Member

Denmark
1813 Posts

Posted - Jan 16 2017 :  09:22:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dynasty Fine Arts, Florida:
http://forum.findartinfo.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12733&whichpage=2

Lots of attributions to signed works.
But also some obvious fakes without reservations or even with COA, for example Miró:
https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item/50472220?from=alert&utm_source=SavedAlert&utm_campaign=SearchAlert&utm_medium=email&utm_content=item

and Chagall:
https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item/50472197?from=alert&utm_source=SavedAlert&utm_campaign=SearchAlert&utm_medium=email&utm_content=item

Regards,
Vietato

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Edited by - Vietato on Jan 16 2017 09:27:50
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Vietato
Gold Member

Denmark
1813 Posts

Posted - Feb 12 2017 :  09:29:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Antique Auctions Plus:
https://new.liveauctioneers.com/auctioneer/5542/antique-auctions-plus

They are are not selling the fakes as bonafide originals, but using the phrase "in the manner of … bearing the signature". So they are fakes, pretending to be by the artists in question.

But who on earth would pay 4,200 $ for this "van Gogh":
https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item/49915641_vincent-van-gogh-self-portrait

There are loads of similar examples.

Regards,
Vietato

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Vietato
Gold Member

Denmark
1813 Posts

Posted - Mar 02 2017 :  09:41:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Fantastic Auctions, Colorado: false attributions to signed works (Asger Jorn, Calder etc.)

https://new.liveauctioneers.com/catalog/100839_fantastic-auctions-first-clouseout-sale

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Vietato
Gold Member

Denmark
1813 Posts

Posted - Jun 30 2017 :  13:25:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Carstens Galleries, Boca Raton, Florida:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/carstens-galleries

Fakes galore without reservations: Nolde, Picasso, Chagall …

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Edited by - Vietato on Jun 30 2017 13:26:45
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Vietato
Gold Member

Denmark
1813 Posts

Posted - Jul 08 2017 :  06:21:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's been a week since I opened any of the daily alerts from Live Auctioneers. Today I picked one at random, Fernand Léger, and I get
ABC Auction, Flordia, with a load of signed artworks, which they call attributed:
https://new.liveauctioneers.com/catalog/106285_abc-auction-july-17th-consignments/

I guess they forgot to merely attribute this Frida Kahlo:https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item/54443314_watercolor-on-paper-signed-frida-khalo

On Live Auctioneers I have noticed about a handful of legitimate auction houses, the rest are outlets for fakes.

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Edited by - Vietato on Jul 08 2017 06:22:10
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Vietato
Gold Member

Denmark
1813 Posts

Posted - Jul 10 2017 :  04:32:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Florida seems to be in the lead.
Pallet Auctions: nothing but false attributions:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/catalog/105158_july-2017-fine-art-auction/

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Job
Junior Member

United Kingdom
123 Posts

Posted - Jul 10 2017 :  08:01:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It is disgraceful, isn't it! And the awful thing is, of course, that all the ever increasing volumes of fakes will stay on the market! Even the ones that are at least only being sold as attributed, for now, will almost all end up being resold as ostensibly real by different rogues.

What I don't understand is why the police seem to abnegate all responsibility in this area, when it is fraud!

And the unbelievably stupid people buying them, with more money than sense, have to take some responsibility for making it so easy for the fraudsters too. Apart from the appalling lack of basic common sense in most cases, it is awful that the vast majority of the public have such uneducated eyes that they can barely tell between the sublime and the grotesque let alone between the good and the better. And that's in real life let alone from a photograph. Yet most of those congratulating themselves for buying whatever "bargain", will also likely be fondly imaging that they are unusually gifted in their aesthetic appreciation. It's frightening and sad at the same time!

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Vietato
Gold Member

Denmark
1813 Posts

Posted - Jul 10 2017 :  15:39:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It requires some Americans taking action, and I fear that fraud is generally accepted - as with the different "internet marketing" schemes. Those people are not hiding, they are even boasting about it.

Unfortunately some of the fakes are spreading to Europe. Here is one example from William George & Co in Peterborough, UK:
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/william-george-auctions/catalogue-id-wi410843/lot-c3bdebe4-ab6f-43ae-98e1-a71500ec8a84?utm_source=auction-alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=auction-alert&utm_content=lot-image-link

They didn't care to change the part about "the painting was acquired from a UK auction house a while ago", even though they were informed that it was sold from a notorious seller of fakes in USA:
https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item/40809221_mujer-y-el-hijo-en-la-noche-oil-on-paper-joan-miro

Nor did they react to the evidence that the certificate is blatantly fake, as mentioned in my first post.

Regards,
Vietato


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Edited by - Vietato on Jul 10 2017 15:43:21
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Vietato
Gold Member

Denmark
1813 Posts

Posted - Jul 17 2017 :  05:20:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Vietato
On Live Auctioneers I have noticed about a handful of legitimate auction houses, the rest are outlets for fakes.


It occurred to me that I ought to moderate this statement: my experience is limited to modern, international artists, not the general auction market.

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Edited by - Vietato on Jul 17 2017 05:20:57
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Vietato
Gold Member

Denmark
1813 Posts

Posted - Aug 16 2017 :  07:09:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A poster suggested adding Art Antiques Auction Gallery in Florida, but the post has now been deleted.
As seen here they actually manage to sell many falsely attributed works:
https://new.liveauctioneers.com/auctioneer/5752/art-antique-auction-gallery/past/

Regards,
Vietato

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Edited by - Vietato on Aug 17 2017 02:14:34
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nyart
Senior Member

USA
687 Posts

Posted - Aug 17 2017 :  23:04:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Very good Durand article Vietato.
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Vietato
Gold Member

Denmark
1813 Posts

Posted - Jan 02 2018 :  05:50:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's been a long time since I looked at Live Auctioneers. Now I opened an email alert at random, and I get another Florida fake auctioneer:
Willow Fine Art Gallery: false attributions en masse:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/catalog/114578_fine-art-collectibles-jewelry-and-more/

Regards,
Vietato

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Edited by - Vietato on Jan 02 2018 06:43:50
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kmurban
Senior Member

USA
717 Posts

Posted - Jan 02 2018 :  07:43:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
" A fool and his money are soon parted " Don't feel discouraged that these scammers are getting away with something. In the end they are not. Karma is a bitch. Just educate yourself and others so you can call bull**** on them with confidence. Be proud you took the time to educate yourself and know the difference.

Thanks to all who took the time to point them out for what they are. To do or say nothing is to support their cause.

But in the end I believe there is two different art markets.

1) fools selling to fools
2) Reputable dealers selling to reputable educated buyers.

Why is it common sense is not so common ?

Edited by - kmurban on Jan 02 2018 08:14:09
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Vietato
Gold Member

Denmark
1813 Posts

Posted - Jan 02 2018 :  08:22:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kmurban


Why is it common sense is not so common ?




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Brooks
Junior Member

United Kingdom
163 Posts

Posted - Feb 06 2018 :  00:11:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi, decided to share my advanced eBay search links for eBay art forgeries on Facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/eBay-Art-Fakes-Forgeries-and-Fraudsters-339624016556744/

-Brooks

Edited by - Brooks on Feb 06 2018 00:13:21
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guillermo505
Starting Member

USA
1 Posts

Posted - Jun 15 2018 :  19:40:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
you state a fake for $2500 dollars is expensive, according to you how much should a fake one cost ?


quote:
Originally posted by Vietato

For some time I have been searching artworks on Live Auctioneers, and I see that several American auctioneers are selling fakes on a regular (that is weekly or even daily) basis.

The fakes are typically works on paper by artists like Poliakoff, Karel Appel, Miró, Kandinsky, Léger, Chagall, Robert and Sonia Delaunay, and the starting prices are set about 2-5000 USD.
That’s cheap for an original work, but very expensive for a fake.

Here we have four copies of the same “original” work by Poliakoff offered on four different dates:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/search?q=serge+poliakoff&hasimage=true&by_date=2015-06-28T05%3A38%3A13.542Z
(screen shot attached, since the link will expire)

They have certificates from “Museum of Modern Art, New York”, written in broken English:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/38348220_composition-pastel-on-paper-serge-poliakoff

Here a Miró with a certificate from “Fundacion Joan Miró”, but with a missing diacritical character ó and an n which shoulddn't be there (Fundació is the real name), and the “technique” written in English:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/38348766_el-gallo-oil-painting-on-paper-joan-miro

Other fakes have certificates from Moss Steinberg:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/38333662_the-rhythm-oil-painting-robert-delaunay
and
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/37936555_oil-painting-on-paper-by-wassily-kandinsky

List of auctioneers with fakes as of January 2, 2018:
Best Auction For You, Inc.
Buy Art Auctions, Inc.
Fine Art Online Auctions, LLC
Art Everywhere Auctions Inc.
USA Live Auctions
Best International Auction
Auctions by Terry
Miami Auction Gallery
Wholesale Art Auctions LLC
US Auction Gallery
L&K Designs Art, Inc
Fidhan Auctions, Brazil
Auctions Online
Dynasty Fine Arts, Florida
Antique Auctions Plus: lots of "in the manner of … bearing the signature" with high starting prices.
Fantastic Auctions, Colorado: false attributions to signed works (Asger Jorn, Calder etc.)
Carstens Galleries, Florida
ABC Auction, Florida
Pallet Auctions, Florida: nothing but false attributions
Art Antique Auction Gallery, Florida: a lot of false attributions
Willow Fine Art Gallery, Florida: a vast collection of false attributions

Regards,
Vietato

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Vietato
Gold Member

Denmark
1813 Posts

Posted - Jun 16 2018 :  05:31:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"Expensive for a fake" was just in "a manner of speaking", as fakes ought not to be sold at all.

Here is a new fake outlet:
888 Auctions, ON, Canada
Obvious fakes by Picasso, Munch, Klee, Kandinsky … “signed and attr.”

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/catalog/123718_modern-art-paintings-and-asian-antiques/

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Edited by - Vietato on Jun 16 2018 07:18:10
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Merray
Gold Member

Canada
1379 Posts

Posted - Jun 16 2018 :  21:00:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Have been going to auctions if not every day than every other day in Southern Ontario for the past 20 years and knowing almost all of the auctioneers personally, I've never heard of 888 Auctions. They must've popped-up out of nowhere very recently. Looks to be run by some Chinese people, everything points to that: from the name, to the address and their site content. They don't advertise locally, if only in Chinese community papers...
I know for years people (including myself) were complaining about fakes sold on eBay, but it seems like Live Auctioneers outdoing the former one badly.
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maxfrost
Junior Member

59 Posts

Posted - Jun 17 2018 :  11:08:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My post isn't about fakes but I've seen true shill bidding with an auction on liveauctioneers. This auctioneer continually changes auction names on there and has the same items up over and over as most go unsold. I'm not sure how it's allowed at all.
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Merray
Gold Member

Canada
1379 Posts

Posted - Jun 18 2018 :  12:44:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There is no way, as I understand, to control shill bidding on Live Auctioneers since they are supposedly run parallel live auctions so they are totally allowed to enter themselves bids from the "floor", "absentee bids", etc. The irony is that I often here complains/suspicions from the people on the floor that the online bids are shill bidding as well. :)
So I guess it could serve auctioneers both ways.
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maxfrost
Junior Member

59 Posts

Posted - Jun 18 2018 :  18:08:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I shouldn't have said unsold. I meant that they do "sell" but then just reappear over and over. It's a Florida auction house (if you even want to call it that; it's mentioned in the list above actually) that does this.

I have also witnessed while watching a liveauctioneers video feed an auctioneer asking the person controlling the online bidding what bids he has and the person replying with obviously the highest amount of the absentee bid that was left. This was definitely what happened because there was no activity or bids that caused the item to go higher with pre-auction bids. This is the reason why I'd never consider leaving an absentee bid ever.
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Job
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United Kingdom
123 Posts

Posted - Jun 18 2018 :  19:11:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In truth, I don't really understand having such issues with "shill bidding", if/when that is even a thing. I have every sympathy with the need to protect something that is genuinely good (not all the fakes) from being thrown away for far too little. There has always been, and should always be, the facility to put a reserve on something. And up to a reserve at standard auctions, bids have always been taken off the wall to encourage real bids. Why would/should that be different just because there's internet bidding?


Edited by - Job on Jun 18 2018 20:18:44
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maxfrost
Junior Member

59 Posts

Posted - Jun 18 2018 :  19:48:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It happens. I've had it happen on ebay as well for art I was trying to purchase. The seller was using shill accounts. I knew this because sometimes he'd win a few of his items and sure enough a few weeks later they'd reappear. Sometimes they're able to hide this by keeping the bidding details private.
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Job
Junior Member

United Kingdom
123 Posts

Posted - Jun 18 2018 :  21:46:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'd agree absentee bids are not always terribly wise. I've always avoided left bids whenever possible, myself, but sometimes needs must. Not all auction houses misuse them but their imperative is to maximise the take and some aren't as ethical as others in that regard. It's obviously very easy to take the highest left bid (or near to it) as if it's an offer to buy at that price regardless, rather than only being the highest price someone will go to in competition with everyone else. But although I do think left bids are taken improper advantage of sometimes, you can't be sure it's happened just because there aren't a procession of bids leading to that. It's perfectly feasible and reasonable for a starting bid to be quoted as a single figure if/when that's the next bid up from the second highest left bid and/or relative to the reserve. I am not sure you entirely understand how that works, Maxfrost.

I'm absolutely sure there's shill bidding on the likes of Ebay. It's quite understandable, though, in some circumstances. Ebay doesn't allow for fair and reasonable protection of things being sold, so that can be the only recourse. Trying to sell something good via auction on Ebay can be like throwing whatever to the tender mercies of the equivalent of a bunch of kindergarten kids who would think a Rembrandt should still be able to be bought for pennies. It's frightening, really! I dislike the practice of keeping bidding details private, but Ebay enforces that. And much worse than just hiding shill bidding is the denial of any facility to contact a fraudulently deceived buyer to tell them they've been fraudulently deceived. So instead, too often there's just yet more great feedback left by yet another unknowing idiot who doesn't understand what it is they've bought in real life, let alone from photos.

I sell some things on Ebay, but very rarely by auction. I have tried occasionally out of curiosity. I did recently with a good watercolour that I'd presumed would be being actively searched for by the many interested parties there should have been. A similar, but not as nice other, sold at an appropriate standard auction for the equivalent of about £3000. In the right gallery it would be hugely more than that. I didn't put shill bids in there, so it only got 2 watchers and one bid of 99p (!) and there was no way I could leave it to finish and sell with that level of interest. So I had no option but to stop the listing. Both watchers contacted me about it, and one of them was a sweet guy who knew what it was and would have loved to buy it but wasn't in the market for something so expensive and hadn't been going to bid more than £100. The other very unpleasant guy started at £30, as if I should have been grateful to get that, but went up to £1000 even after I made it very clear I wasn't selling it to him at any price, and was really shirty about the listing having been stopped at all because he seemed to think he had some sort of right to have it thrown away at him for peanuts. And that's what Ebay is full of, silly people who'll see/pay £1500 for the likes of a worthless fake Picasso, and who then also think that something good that's actually real should also be supposed to be able to be bought for the same sort of minuscule fraction of genuine value.


Edited by - Job on Jun 18 2018 21:58:19
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Merray
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Canada
1379 Posts

Posted - Jun 19 2018 :  08:36:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
With fakes sold shill bidding serves mainly the purpose of another tool to give them extra credibility in the eyes of general public.
There is no need to shill bid on eBay as it has the perfectly legal option of adding a hidden reserve price. I didn't ever put one myself neither did I ever bothered to bid on auctions with such - that's another story of personal preferences and/or perceptions, but it's there and available to those who wants it nevertheless.
I've been selling on eBay nearly from the time of its invention and tried different ways changing and adjusting along with eBay changing as a marketplace itself. Nowadays it's much more of an online retail place rather than auction - what it used to be originally. So for the past 6-7 years my strategy is rather simple: first I list an item as an auction with a starting bid of what is the minimum I'm willing to sell it for, and if it doesn't sell I just re-list it in my eBay Store with on average 30% mark up, but with a "make an offer" option, so I would accept an offer at or above my initial auction starting bid.
90% of the listings don't sell on the first try as an auction listing but would sell later on as a store item, so it tells you pretty much how that marketplace has changed, what kind of a buyer comes there. Therefore you need to adjust according to economics 101: demand determines supply, and play along.
BTW, I'm considering now on giving up on listing in auction format altogether.
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Job
Junior Member

United Kingdom
123 Posts

Posted - Jun 19 2018 :  13:03:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
There is no need to shill bid on eBay as it has the perfectly legal option of adding a hidden reserve price. I didn't ever put one myself neither did I ever bothered to bid on auctions with such - that's another story of personal preferences and/or perceptions, but it's there and available to those who wants it nevertheless.


What you're talking about there re the Ebay "reserve" facility, Merray, might be a legal option, but it's far from a feasible or functional option. It costs an arm and a leg for having the temerity to want to protect your own property and all anyone actually buys with that is a ball and chain deterrent to actually selling! As you say yourself, you wouldn't bid on anything with the Ebay version of a reserve and neither do I and neither does anyone else. Because the critical point there is that it ISN'T HIDDEN! It should be hidden. It might work if it was hidden, but it isn't. Ebay insists on advertising that there's a reserve rather than having a system where bids can be taken off the wall up to it as per normal practice in standard auctions.

And I agree with you re the necessity to have to adjust to supplying what the buyers are demanding. Unfortunately that runs even harder into the awfulness of the reality of the inadequacy of the majority of buyers' ability (even re those who look at art) to distinguish between the sublime and the grotesque, let alone between the good and the better. "Good" doesn't sell, because it isn't recognised. The only thing that reliably sells is the perception of a "bargain"! And that's when you get to the utter stupidity demonstrated by the idiots deceived into buying the likes of the worthless fake Picassos that seem to be a "bargain" at £1500 and the mass perception that genuine art ought to be the same level of "bargain". And that means "real" doesn't sell at all. It might be Economics 101 but being supposed to have to pander/cater only to the "bargain" demanders is soul destroying! But it's why all the fakes are proliferating.


Edited by - Job on Jun 19 2018 14:04:27
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Merray
Gold Member

Canada
1379 Posts

Posted - Jun 19 2018 :  15:47:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree with most you say Job, and precisely when I figured out those things myself I simply stopped running the $1 starting bid auctions and start them only at the price I'm actually willing to sell at. That being said, there is more to psychology of the sale and figuring the other part helped me properly adjust to new realities. :)
Like you've said "people are looking for bargain", what it means generally they are not buying art to enjoy the artwork but rather themselves! It's the need to pat yourself on the shoulder thinking how smart you are, how good of an eye you've got, how much better you are than others. And the same way as with the low starting... and ending auctions I can provide them with those feelings by letting them "bargain hard" with me on the price and win. :)
It is even better for me and for them in many ways. For me that since making an offer is a responsible move, they tend to educate themselves better beginning with the artist's auction record to know precisely what should be considered a bargain here. And for them besides feeling less pressured, more in control, perhaps the fact of "outbarganing" a knowledgeable man, makes the victory feel even sweeter than snatching something from an unsuspecting loser. And although this does not apply to all of the buyer categories out there, there are plenty of those you can do business with towards mutual benefits.
But of course the market would be tremendously greater should the fakes be taken out the equation, they simply grab way too much money off the table overall. That's also economics 101. :(
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Vietato
Gold Member

Denmark
1813 Posts

Posted - Jul 02 2018 :  06:38:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just got an email from INVALUABLE (!) with the headline "Art from 888 Auctions".

I thought for a moment it would be a warning, maybe a report of a police investigation, but no, the email is advocating an auction on July 5th, and it showcases seven modern works which are all fakes.

The top lot is this Andy Warhol:
https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/andy-warhol-american-1928-1987-mixed-media-33644C1BA1?utm_source=house&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=targetedexclusive&utm_content=888070218

It has a certificate from an unknown art service in Toulouse, France, which apparently had a stamp made with a wrong ZIP code

Regards,
Vietato

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maxfrost
Junior Member

59 Posts

Posted - Jul 02 2018 :  13:42:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I got this email advertising this auction just before, amongst the listings I see lots of big name ummm....

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/63089301_pablo-picasso-pencil-on-paper-9-x-55-probstudy


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Vietato
Gold Member

Denmark
1813 Posts

Posted - Jul 02 2018 :  16:55:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes ... Carstens Galleries was added to the list of fake auctioneers a year ago.

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