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 E Steele Water Colour and Gouache Painting
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MTC
New Member

United Kingdom
38 Posts

Posted - Feb 17 2019 :  08:35:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
E Steele, Water Colour and Gouache Painting

Its size is 52 cm Wide, 34 cm height.


This artist is the same person referred to as Edwin Steele on the auction sites, but with incorrect dates of either 1803-1871, or 1837-1898.

There is another Edwin Steele, but this one was the son of this painter. Edwin J. Steele who was born in 1861 in Stoke on Trent. Apparently he died in Birmingham in 1933.

Edwin Steele was a painter at this Rockingham china and porcelain patter book, and his father, Thomas Steele was a painter at the same factory before his son. Thomas Steel was married to Susannah Taylor.

E Steele is known as a painter of fruit and flowers, although there are some landscapes listed. He was quite a prolific painter, although he did not appear to exhibit, as there are no biographical details listed in our reference books, which are drawn from exhibition records.

I reckon this painting is authentic because there isn't any indication telling me otherwise. I have acquired many prints and one learns to distinguish between a copy and an authentic painting.

In England and France, when it is a copy, most paintings have a copyright
stamp of the company where the copy was reproduced. Also the colour of the painting is too good for being a copy. In this watercolour and gouache painting, there is nothing telling me the same is a reproduction.

In some parts of the painting I can feel the brush strokes, when I pass over it with my fingers. In particular over the waves beside the boats.

It was painted on a paper and then it was stretched on a board with gum-backed tape.

An Art house with whom I entered in contact with, told me that the painting should be from Elvic Steele and not Edwin Steele, as according to this person the painting is modern.

However, these boats were used in Brighton in 1824. So the painting is not modern at all, but very old. It is ca 200 years old. I am posting here the boats I am talking about for you to see. Besides, Elvic Steele’s signature, is a completely different one.

One thing that intrigued me on this painting, were the white waves below on the right hand side. I was wondering why the painter had painted them there??? Yesterday, as I was watching a film, I could see that any light coming from the sky can produce this effect in the water.

I have bought this painting in "heart foundation" store in Islington, London.

Can you please help me to ascertain if the painting is authentic or a copy?

Many thanks beforehand.

Teresa Coutinho

Sent: 28 October 2019 21:26 To: Webmaster Subject: Can you please help me, in ascertaining if the boats on this painting could have been painted between 1820 and 1870?

Dear Sir or Madam
Would you be so kind in helping me to discover, if these boats on this painting, which I am sending you herewith by attachment, could have been painted in the 19 century?
I am looking forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully

Maria Coutinho

On Friday, 1 November 2019, 09:43:35 GMT, Dave Waller <dave.waller@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
Hello Maria, very good to hear from you. Unfortunately the image that you sent is not very clear, but it looks to be of two sailing barges in the foreground. Of themselves these could be any date in the last few hundred years. However in the centre background there appears to be two steam vessels, one small one, maybe a tug towing a sailing ship and another larger steamer to the right. The very tall smoke stacks indicate that they are early steamships of around 1900.

It is just possible that they date from the later end of your date range. Another photo of those two ships would help. Sorry I can’t be any clearer. Best regards Dave Waller

Dave Waller (dave.waller@blueyonder.co.uk) To: mariacoutinho38@yahoo.co.uk Date: Friday, 8 November 2019, 16:57 GMT
Hello again Maria I can’t really comment on which E Steele you are looking for but I have found a photo of a tug built in 1870 that is similar to that shown on your picture. I am NOT suggesting that this is the tug but that similar tugs would have been built around that time. Many tugs earlier than this would have been driven by paddle wheels, one on each side of the tug, whereas this one is driven by a screw propeller at the stern. If you were looking for 1860 as the date then there would have been very few screw tugs around. I hope that this helps. Best regards Dave

I am putting here the Archimedes because it is a ship made in 1840.

E Steele died in 1871, so as I always said, he is the one who painted this painting. Almost 100% sure.

Today 1 January 2020 I found on this website an even closer match to the signature of the Painting I have. E Steele 1803 to 1871. I am adding it here.



ATTACHMENTS:
E Steele Good Picture.jpg
Back of the Painting 6.jpg
E Steele Waves 2.jpg
E Steele Signature.jpg
Beached Vessels at Brighton 1824.jpg
Tug-1870 (1).jpg
Paintings of sheeps in Pasture E Steele father.jpg
Landscape E Steele father.jpg
Edwin Steele Son.jpg
E Steele Signature.jpg
Archimeds.jpg
E Steele 1803 to 1871.jpg
E Steel Portrait .jpg
E Steele Hounds and Fox.jpg
450px-The_Fighting_Temeraire,_JMW_Turner,_National_Gallery.jpg

Edited by - MTC on Mar 11 2020 19:31:14

arb
Senior Member

Netherlands
835 Posts

Posted - Dec 29 2019 :  05:32:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As all photos but one are grainy, your questions are not easy to answer. Here my two cents: I see an authentic post World War II gouache and/or water colour seascape depicting an older period with barges and steamers, done by a probably academically educated artist, on a modern sheet of industrially produced bleached paper.

Some of your assumptions will not hold in artibus. A life-long productive flower painter like Edwin Steele could not possibly have had enough marine knowledge nor interest to produce this work. And the age of the vessel types may pinpoint the era of the image, but not of its creation. The situation we see no longer existed when the artist painted your picture.

That said, I cannot judge the artwork's value. Others here can and may hopefully suggest a link to a UK art forum. British art is well documented, but a highly specialized field. It was rarely exported, its secondary litterature and dictionaries rarely reach the continent. Your artist must be listed and identifiable in some UK publication, but to me abroad he is irretrievable.
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MTC
New Member

United Kingdom
38 Posts

Posted - Dec 30 2019 :  23:16:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Arb I find that your reply to me is of an amateur yourself, and not of a Senior member of this Forum. I am actually flabbergasted by your reply to me.

You didn't even held the painting in your hand, in order to say it has been produced on bleached paper.

You don't know this family too. I prefer not to speak when I don't know. I researched information about him and one of the signatures of him, it is a close math to the one of the painting I have.

Dave reply to me was more of an expert in the subject than your one.

There are two Edwin Steele and as I see you didn't understand it. If you go to this website and look under S for Steele you are going to see the difference in signatures between father and son.

Edwin Steele's father was a prolific painter as many other painters.

Constable for instance, painted mostly landscapes, but he painted barges like Steele. A good painter can paint anything. Furthermore, my father for instance was a Sociologist, but he was able to renovate two Manor Houses without an architect. When a person is an artist can do anything. Leonardo de Vinci was a prolific painter too, who was able to paint horses, sea an many other different subjects. He even tried to invent a device for flying. He had an interest in Optics too.

I hope you understood what I said.

Teresa Coutinho

Edited by - MTC on Dec 30 2019 23:36:46
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MTC
New Member

United Kingdom
38 Posts

Posted - Dec 30 2019 :  23:31:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Arb, the last signature that I put on this Forum, the one on the top is a close match to the painting I have. I paid ca 5 dollars for being able to research Edwin Steele's signature on this site. Only then I came to the conclusion who painted this painting. I am talking about facts not suppositions. if you see what I mean.

Teresa Coutinho

Edited by - MTC on Dec 30 2019 23:41:43
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arb
Senior Member

Netherlands
835 Posts

Posted - Dec 31 2019 :  03:07:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

https://abload.de/img/unbenannt296kyh.jpg

These are the 2019 auction results of E.Steele Senior's paintings on Artprice. I left out some, they remained unsold. So valuewise not an attractive attribution and not an issue to waste time on you can use to find other art.

https://tinyurl.com/vschv5z
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MTC
New Member

United Kingdom
38 Posts

Posted - Dec 31 2019 :  05:29:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Before I wrote "arb" with a capital letter, now I write it with a small letter. You are not only an amateur, but "extremely rude" too. All your four stars didn't intimidate me either.

Obviously the paintings that you saw on Artprice are prints, not originals like this one. Never a painting by such a famous artist as him can be of this value. Only ignorant people sell an original painting by such a value.

http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O8090/rhinoceros-vase-vase-and-cover-steele-edwin/

Sothebys, even said that this painting could value £3000.00. I said to them I wouldn't ever sell this painting for that price. I prefer to keep it for myself. And when I sent this painting to Sothebys I was unsure of its authenticity. Now I am 100% sure, it is not a print, but an original one.





Teresa Coutinho

Edited by - MTC on Dec 31 2019 05:57:22
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arb
Senior Member

Netherlands
835 Posts

Posted - Dec 31 2019 :  05:50:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If I give you my four stars, will I get back my capital A?
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MTC
New Member

United Kingdom
38 Posts

Posted - Dec 31 2019 :  05:56:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes, sure ARB I am a "sensitive" person.

Teresa Coutinho
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jhomejimbo
Senior Member

731 Posts

Posted - Jan 03 2020 :  19:55:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Funny, it seems that input by interested members, no matter if right or wrong, should be respected. If you don't agree, that's fine. If I had given my opinion, I would, at least, want to be appreciated for taking tIme to help you.. In this case, you obviously disagree with Arb's opinion - that is your perogative. I often disagree with people's opinions about my art. After all, value of art is very subjective. In your case, your opinion of your artwork might be based on obscure information on which you are basing your opinion. I don't know much about your presumed artist, so I cannot, honestly give any input. It seems, though, that you have decided, based on hundreds of signatures by aN artist named, "Steele", that yours is by a particular, "Steele". Your right, that it is impossible to tell whether a painting is an over-paint, or glued to the reverse, or a 'copy', without actually holding the painting in your hands. You could make many assumptions of a painting, like yours. They could all be, just that - assumptions.

I don't always agree with opinions about submissions to the forum, but, I've found that input, especially from Arb (capital "A"), can be very helpful, whether correct or incorrect. It is up to you, whether you are open-minded enough to accept opinions, with or without your pre-conceived value of your work. Your art may be very valuable to you, and might be, but if you do not want opposing input, don't ask. It's just an opinion. I've always been very interested in Arb's opinion, because of his honesty with his responses.

I was once told, by a member,, that he would have walked right by a painting that I had submitted to the "Forum", if he saw it in a Goodwill for $5.00. I sold the painting for $12,000.00. Was his ego worth $11,995.00? Probably not! His loss! I, actually, bought it in a thrift store for $14.00. He might have been the guy, who picked it up, looked at it, and put it down, just before I bought it.

Often, when I have asked for an appraisal, of an artwork, at an auction house, "experts" have been unable to commit to authentication or value, for fear of being wrong. I find, that on the forum, there is comfort, in the fact, that responders have little to gain by manufacturing a false opinion. Their ego might get in their way, once in a while, but it's obvious when it happens.

Just my opinion!

Be well,

Jimmy N
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hercules brabazon
Senior Member

United Kingdom
918 Posts

Posted - Jan 04 2020 :  06:24:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Have you seen this? Signed "Edwin Steele", and very probably the same artist. Seems to have a rather limited technique.

https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/74dbd64dc0dd0d70d3f2b2cca3bb9aa9/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/antiques-collectors-interior-sale-lot-313/
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arb
Senior Member

Netherlands
835 Posts

Posted - Jan 04 2020 :  07:46:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And another one:

https://tinyurl.com/wystecq
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MTC
New Member

United Kingdom
38 Posts

Posted - Jan 04 2020 :  15:17:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Jimmy N

Many thanks for your words I liked reading them. I totally agree with you, I put here my paintings, for having them judged by people who know what they are talking about. For experts to say what they think about it. Not just say something negative about a work of art, when you are not sure or do not know.

Besides, I put here two other paintings and I accepted what Vitiato said about them. Therefore, it means when I see a person is right, I totally agree with their judgement.

For instance when "arb" wrote about E Steele he didn't actually know that there are two different E Steele painters. Father and son.
Father worked in a Rockingham china and porcelain patter book, and I reckon he only painted flowers and fruits in this place. However, the father was a prolific painter and there are many other subjects he painted besides flowers and fruits.

E. J. Steele, the son, on the other hand, I only know paintings by him of flowers and fruits. He was a great painter too.

I am also right to agree or disagree with their opinion, because they don't actually know the painting as well as I do. I took the painting off from the frame, so I could clearly see that the painting is not a print.

Arb sent me another reply to the painting, I liked very much receiving it, in order to see how good my painting is.

Regards

Teresa Coutinho

Edited by - MTC on Jan 04 2020 17:27:42
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MTC
New Member

United Kingdom
38 Posts

Posted - Jan 04 2020 :  16:03:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hercules Brabazon, many thanks for the painting you sent to me of Edwin Steele.

I believe your painting is a print, because not only there are two places where the brushstrokes are missing, but also the colour of the sea seems to change. Whereas the colour of my own is constant. The signature too, is completely different from my own, and from the one on this website of E Steele from 1803 to 1871. I paid last Tuesday $4.99 for having a look again at all E Steeles signatures , and the signature on the painting I have is a close match to the one on this site.

Besides, it would be great if you could take the frame out of your painting, for me to assess it better. On my own, when I pass my fingers on the paint, I can easily feel the brushstrokes. So I know it is not a print. Is the painting stretched to the cartoon, or how is it? Can you please show me the front and the back of the painting without its frame?

I am looking forward to hearing from you.

Regards


Teresa Coutinho
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MTC
New Member

United Kingdom
38 Posts

Posted - Jan 04 2020 :  16:09:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Arb Many thanks for showing me a "print" of the painting I have.

The link you sent to me of the Crow's Auction Gallery is fabulous! I can very well understand why the price by which the painting was sold it was merely £30 to £50. It is a very bad print of the painting I have.

The colour of the sky is not constant, and a person cannot easily see how the weather was on that day. Whereas on my own painting, there are clouds above the sea at the beginning and darkness at the end, it give a realistic picture of the bad weather. Lighting could be possible too on that day.

The bad weather is the reason why the boats are slanted, and the smoke on the boats have exactly the same direction of the slanted boats. On my painting, we can easily see that on that day there was a lot of wind, and in yours we cannot see whether there was good or bad weather.

Furthermore, it was extremely difficult to do this painting because the author had to match all details with each other.

The signature on "the auctioneers" painting is a very bad copy too.

You are a senior member of this group, and consequently I am sure you can understand what I said, didn't you? Compare the signature on this painting, with the one of E Steele from 1803 to 1873.

Can you please ask to the owners of this website to take the copyright stamp, above the signature, for us to see the signature more clearly. I am referring to the Signature of E Steele from 1803 to 1871. I can see it with a magnifier well, but it would be better for everyone without "findart" stamp on the top of it.

Kind regards

Teresa Coutinho

Edited by - MTC on Jan 04 2020 17:19:57
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jhomejimbo
Senior Member

731 Posts

Posted - Jan 06 2020 :  02:31:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Teresa,

People on the forum are trying to help you. If you don't like what they tell you, you seem to be condescending toward them, calling them amatuer.

If they tell you something good about your painting, you agree with them, without criticism.

I'm a little confused! Have you, actually sent good photos for us to really try and make an educated guess as to it being a print, or an original, - or is it a painting over a print?

I don't want to see photos of other works by Steele, or other photos of signatures of other Steele paintings. When I try to help attribute anyone's painting, I'd like to see only pictures of your painting. We can tell you what we think, although you have preconceived assessments of your painting. Let us make our contribution, without your assumed information. We could be totally wrong, but so could you.

I think you ought to take pictures, only of your painting, showing clear images of the signature, a clear photo of the edge of the painted surface, for us to decide whether it's a real painting (I'm not doubting that you think you're right, but there are pretty good experts out here), and, certainly, quality close-ups so that we can see brush strokes, etc.

Evidently, you don't seem to be accepting responses from four star people. If you think, as a starting member that you are more informed with them, I would go somewhere else. I'm not being mean, but you can't manufacture a valuable work, from a work that doesn't fit the criterions necessary to designat the painting as genuine, original, and by the demanded, listed, artist.

If you make it difficult for four star members to give you advice, criticizing things you don't like, and calling them names, they will just not bother to help you. I don't want that to happen to you, as a starting member. Remember, these gracious members are not getting paid to help you - they happen to love art, and they love people to be more educated and realistic about paintings, whether valuable, or not. Throughout the years, I have accepted many opinions about my collection of paintings. Some paintings, which have been discussed by the best, are found to be worthless - those paintings, sometimes, are my favorites, and they are hanging in by home.

Please send new photos that have definition.

I wish you much good luck, finding out about "Steele". Don't make yourself crazy about it. If you want to find it's value, put it up for sale on Ebay. You'll find criticisms, or praise - take your pick!

Regards, Teresa (capital [T] ).

Jimmy N
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MTC
New Member

United Kingdom
38 Posts

Posted - Jan 06 2020 :  06:37:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Jimmy, I was extremely friendly to you and to the other ones.

Your reply to me was extremely condescending. Aren't you used to have women putting their paintings here?

I found you were extremely gross to me. You are a Pompous Ass!

Regards



Teresa Coutinho

Edited by - MTC on Jan 06 2020 17:40:10
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jhomejimbo
Senior Member

731 Posts

Posted - Jan 07 2020 :  13:57:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MTC

Arb, the last signature that I put on this Forum, the one on the top is a close match to the painting I have. I paid ca 5 dollars for being able to research Edwin Steele's signature on this site. Only then I came to the conclusion who painted this painting. I am talking about facts not suppositions. if you see what I mean.

Teresa Coutinho

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jhomejimbo
Senior Member

731 Posts

Posted - Jan 07 2020 :  14:02:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear Teresa,

"Art", good or bad, knows no gender. Taking it personally, will not change the outcome.

Sincerely,

Jimmy N
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MTC
New Member

United Kingdom
38 Posts

Posted - Jan 07 2020 :  22:40:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear Jimmy

I liked your last reply a lot more.

Many thanks for your interest in my painting.

I am going to send you a few pictures I took of the painting now.

Please, let me know what do you think of the last pictures, and if you need more.

Regards



Teresa Coutinho



ATTACHMENTS:
Signature 4.jpg
Picture Taken on 08 January 2020 3.jpg
Large picture 2.jpg
Picture 6, 8 January 2020.jpg
Last Signature taken on 8 January 2019.jpg

Edited by - MTC on Jan 07 2020 23:06:21
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P/K/S
Junior Member

USA
184 Posts

Posted - Jan 17 2020 :  21:38:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello Teresa, please dont get me wrong but I think you misunderstood arb response, I was reading his post few times and I dont think he meant to say " not an issue to waste time on you " in my opinion he meant to say " not an issue to waste time. You can use that time to find other work " comma is missing and the whole sentence sound different, I dont think he was trying to insult you in any way (in this case) please correct me if im wrong, on another hand arb insulted me in the past completely with no reason so I really have no iidea what his intentions are
quote:
Originally posted by arb


https://abload.de/img/unbenannt296kyh.jpg

These are the 2019 auction results of E.Steele Senior's paintings on Artprice. I left out some, they remained unsold. So valuewise not an attractive attribution and not an issue to waste time on you can use to find other art.

https://tinyurl.com/vschv5z



Edited by - P/K/S on Jan 17 2020 22:18:49
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MTC
New Member

United Kingdom
38 Posts

Posted - Jan 18 2020 :  01:50:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello, P/K/C Many thanks for your post.

However, if you had come here to say something new about my painting I would have appreciated it a lot more.

To come here to defend what "arb" said in the past, it wasn't necessary.

If you have any issue with him, tell him straight, as I did in my posts to him.

Besides, his reply had been resolved between me and him.

Regards



Teresa Coutinho

Edited by - MTC on Jan 18 2020 06:19:40
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MTC
New Member

United Kingdom
38 Posts

Posted - Jan 18 2020 :  20:13:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I thank you all for the comments regarding the Painting I have by E Steele

I put both paintings here just for you to see the "huge difference" between my painting that is "authentic", and this reproduction, which was in the Crows Gallery in August 2018. Who cannot see it, doesn't understand anything about a good painting, and a very bad one. I also put the link to the Crows Auction Gallery.

https://www.ukauctioneers.com/auction_catalogue.cfm?d&itemID=20E9CB0FD7D62AFDDFE1FECEFF5809E4EA26A3C2&auction=21ECCB06D1&action=13&rangepage=13¤tpage=1&showLots=50&sortBy=lotsort&lotView=list&imagesOnly=N


I read some comments by Arb saying that this painting has been done after the second world war, on a modern sheet of Industrially produced bleached paper.

Why does Arb claim that this painting has been done on a modern sheet produced bleached paper? Is it because it has some paint smudge at the upper right edge; that would have been cut off in a reproduction?

For working out of doors in cold weather, alcohol can be mixed with water to prevent freezing. Paul Sandy (Paul Sandby RA was an English map-maker turned landscape painter in watercolours, who, along with his older brother Thomas, became one of the founding members of the Royal Academy in 1768) is known to have used gin for this purpose.

You can see that on the XVIII century gin was already used for helping a painter paint out doors, and it can be the cause, why there is paint smudge at the right edge. Nothing to do with the paper being bleached, if you see what I mean.

Besides, the reproduction of my painting at the Crows Auction Gallery, is under the title " Antiques and Collectibles" Therefore, why would a reproduction House be interested in reproducing a painting of a modern amateur? It doesn't make any sense.

Furthermore, this auction house has even given a title to the painting, which is as follows: "Shipping in the Thames Estuary". I find a very impressive and imposing name for a painting. The person who chose this place, was someone who knew very well what he was going to do. I mean definitely not an amateur.

On the painting there are Clouds, the Sea, Waves, Barges, Tugs, Steamers and along the shore there are a lot more things other than boats. Barges according to an expert to whom I wrote and asked for his help on the subject, said to me they could be 100 or 200 years old. Tugs could have been done in 1870 or around that time, the Archimedes was built in 1839. The colour of the painting is mostly blue.

I am not doing it because I want to sell the painting. I love it, and I know it is good. Besides, I would never, ever put it on Ebay.

I don't need money. I am enjoying my job, I have everything I need in my house. Therefore, if someone will be interested in this painting, he/she would have to pay me a lot more than £3000.00

I am giving you a bit more information about this painting. I hope you have enjoyed reading it.

Regards to all interested in it.










Teresa Coutinho



ATTACHMENTS:
E Steele Autentic Painting.jpg
For Working Outside Paul Sandby.jpg
Crow Auction Gallery 2 .jpg

Edited by - MTC on Mar 03 2020 01:22:12
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MTC
New Member

United Kingdom
38 Posts

Posted - Feb 15 2020 :  17:50:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Apparently painting Tugs in the XIX century seemed to be in fashion.

The Fighting Temeraire, tugged to her last berth to be broken up, 1838 is an oil painting by the English artist Joseph Mallord William Turner, painted in 1838 and exhibited at the Royal Academy in 1839.[1]

The painting depicts the 98-gun HMS Temeraire, one of the last second-rate ships of the line to have played a role in the Battle of Trafalgar, being towed by a paddle-wheel steam tug towards its final berth in Rotherhithe in Surrey in 1838 to be broken up for scrap.

Teresa Coutinho



ATTACHMENTS:
450px-The_Fighting_Temeraire,_JMW_Turner,_National_Gallery.jpg
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MTC
New Member

United Kingdom
38 Posts

Posted - Mar 01 2020 :  22:22:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am posting all the possible signatures for Edwin's Steele son. He is Edwin and Elizabeth Steele's son. Edward James Steele was born in Stoke and Trent on 13 March 1861. Edward James Steele died in Birmingham in 1933.

Edward Steele's father, Edwin Steele, was a "flower painter" in his job, but outside his occupation he painted many other subjects. He was quite a prolific painter, although he did not appear to exhibit, as there are no biographical details listed in reference books, which are drawn from exhibition records.


I have bought his birth Certificate and so I know what I am talking about. Can you please update this information on this website. Edwin Steele's son, was called Edward James Steele, and not Edwin as many people think. If you are in any doubt of what I am telling you, you can get this information by email or telephone number.

Email address is as follows: register.office@stoke.gov.uk

Telephone number is: 01782 235260


Besides, I would like to add, you can see here, that painters do not always write down their signatures "letters", in the same manner.

I have been unable to post again the different signatures for Edwin Steele's Son, who was born in 1839. However you can see all of them by paying more a less $4.00 on this website.

Teresa Coutinho

Edited by - MTC on Mar 11 2020 02:16:58
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hercules brabazon
Senior Member

United Kingdom
918 Posts

Posted - Mar 03 2020 :  05:36:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I usually try to avoid controversey but...

There were definitely three Staffordshire artists called Edwin Steele. One born in the first decade of the 19th Century - he's the noted china painter. The second born in c. 1839/ 40 was still alive at the time of the 1911 census. Here are his details from familysearch

Name:
Edwin Steele
Event Type:
Census
Event Date:
1911
Event Place:
Wolstanton, Staffordshire, England, United Kingdom
County:
Staffordshire
Parish:
Wolstanton
Sub-District:
Wolstanton
Sub-District Number:
1
District Number:
360
Enumeration District:
2
Registration District:
Wolstanton
Gender:
Male
Age:
72
Marital Status:
Widowed
Marital Status (Original):
WIDOWER
Occupation:
PAINTER ARTIST OF FRUIT ON CANVAS
Number in Family:
2
Birth Year (Estimated):
1839
Birthplace:
Shelton, Staffordshire
Relationship to Head of Household:
Head
Schedule Type:
176
Page Number:
1
Registration Number:
RG14
Piece/Folio:
351
Affiliate Record Identifier:
GBC/1911/RG14/16440/0351/1


The third, his son, b. 1861 is described a "China painter" in the 1881 census. See https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27V-Z7Z1 (log in needed)

Event Place:
Stoke Upon Trent, Staffordshire, England
Registration District:
Stoke Upon Trent
Residence Note:
Peel St Late Regent St
Gender:
Male
Age:
20
Marital Status (Original):
Single
Occupation:
China Painter
Relationship to Head of Household:
Son
Birth Year (Estimated):
1861
Birthplace:
Hanley, Staffordshire, England
Page Number:
28
Registration Number:
RG11
Piece/Folio:
2720/132
Affiliate Record Type:
Household

Edited by - hercules brabazon on Mar 03 2020 05:41:27
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MTC
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Posted - Mar 03 2020 :  08:12:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
HERCULES, there might be then 2 Edwin Steele, but definitely not 3. Edward James Steele was born in Hanley, in Stafford, Stoke on Trent, and his father's occupation was flower painting. He was born on 13 March 1861. I have his birth certificate. So the one born in Hanley isn't called Edwin, but Edward James Steele. I know that for sure. Many thanks for helping me, to know the painters past better. I will be investigating it further. Regards

Teresa Coutinho

Edited by - MTC on Mar 03 2020 08:15:04
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Posted - Mar 10 2020 :  20:42:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Edwin Steele was a painter and enameller at the Rockingham China and porcelain factory between the years 1803 – 1871. He is the son of Thomas Steel who was also an artist at the factory before his son.

Thomas Steel moved back to Staffordshire to work at the Minton factory, taking his son with him and they lived in Stoke on Trent.

His wife was Charlotte Steele, formerly “Laban”. Charlotte was from Derby, Derbyshire. Edwin Steele married Charlotte Laban in 1826 in Derby.

In 1839 Edwin Steele had a son, also called Edwin Steele, who was born in Shelton, Staffordshire. He was also an artist. He painted flowers and fruits on Canvas. He was working on his own account.

Edwin Steele's son, Edwin, married to Elizabeth Steele, formerly Walker, and in 1861 had a son called Edward James Steele. Edward James Steele was also a China painter.

I can therefore conclude that the painters in this family, which most people know better, are Edwin's father and son. I mean by that, that both whose first name is Edwin are the most popular among us.

Edward James Steele, was a good painter, but there aren't many works known by him. In this website I only saw two. His signature was very different too.


Teresa Coutinho

Edited by - MTC on Mar 11 2020 08:27:43
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Posted - Mar 15 2020 :  19:49:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A link here below where Thomas Steele, and his son Edwin Steele have worked:

http://www.themintonarchive.org.uk/about/

The Minton Archives representatives, sent it to me, after asking them.

STEELE, Edwin ( c. 1805 - 1871) Painter - Active mid - 19th century. Born at Burlesm, Stoke-on-Trent. Trained under his father Thomas at the Derby works. Worked at the Rockingham Minton's and other Staffordshire potteries, specialising in fruit and flower painting.

STEELE, Thomas sen. (c. 1771 - 1850) Painter active, c. 1832 - 50. Apprentice at Wedgwood in 1787, in his thirties he went to the Derby factory and became one of the foremost fruit and flowers painters. Left Derby in the early 1820s, went to the Rockingham Porcelain works in Yorkshire before returning to the Potteries. Employed at Minton for the remainder of his working life. Steele was named as one of the three principal painters, with Hancock and Bancroft, after leaving Derby.

What a family of Artists!!!

Teresa Coutinho

Edited by - MTC on Mar 15 2020 20:02:47
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angelo
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Posted - Mar 16 2020 :  03:36:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It was interesting to read all the thread.
The main thing is that the photos in the beginning post , as many people said , are not
well detailed. So starting from those existing , it's impossible to see how the colours are painted on the paper.
Starting from these photos and their definition , it's difficult to check some details :
a) if the artist is died in 1870 , the paper seems too good to have 150 years ;
b) checking if the work is painted or printed ;
c) the signature seems too perfect to be handmade.
Of course these are only my thoughts.

Regards

Angelo
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Posted - Mar 17 2020 :  20:54:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Good evening Angelo.

I really “loved” reading your comments. Many thanks for taking the time to read all the different opinions regarding this painting.

I feel I can easily reply to all your questions:

As we say in London, what doesn’t kill you, makes you stronger.

A) The board where the painting is stretched, it doesn’t look new to me at all. Besides, it depends where the painting was stored for all these years. I worked for the British Library in London many years ago, and certain books were stored in a special room, for preserving its colour. If you look at the front of the painting, its colour has definitely changed.

Furthermore, I don’t actually find 150 years old many years, if you think that Leonardo lived 568 years ago. And what about Leonard Da Vinci paintings? If there weren’t techniques for preserving the paper, the paper had gone so very black that the paintings couldn’t be seen anymore.

Albrecht Durer painted many watercolour paintings, he lived 450 years ago, if the paper changed so much the colour, we wouldn’t be able to see its paintings nowadays.

That is the reason why there are first class painters and second class ones. The first class ones, its paintings last forever, like anything else of good quality.

In addition to what was said, I am going to put here another painting after, which I believe it is a print, but I am not sure. The painting is black and white, and it was behind of a print of the Millennium, by Abraham Cooper. It dates back to 1848. The painting was on a wall of the top floor of my Italian friend. He didn’t know of its existence.

When I acquired the Millennium from Luigi, my Italian friend, I decided to see the painting in my hands, and took its frame off. When I did it, I discover another painting on its back. Because the painting was in the back of another painting, and on the top floor of the house, the painting change its colour extensively. The wet weather played its toll on it. But unfortunately the colour didn’t change in all the parts of the painting the same. There are parts really very clear, and others very dark. It is such a gorgeous painting though.

What I am trying to tell you is, you cannot judge a painting by the back colour, as it depends a lot of where the painting was hold all these 150 years. The last owner of this painting can have change its frame for the one it has now. Probably the other one was in a very bad state.

Here below it is a link to the painting, which had another painting on its back, inside of the same frame. The same frame was holding two paintings.

https://www.meisterdrucke.uk/fine-art-prints/Abraham-Cooper/598354/Saddled-grey-charger-frightened-by-a-storm,-called-Millenium,-1820-.html

The reproduction I have of a Cezanne painting, it was very likely held on a restaurant wall, and for that its colour had changed too. Luigi told me, he had to clean it as it was very dirty. The good thing about Oil paintings, is that they can be cleaned easily.

Nevertheless, I will be investigating it further. Later on I will let you know what I have found out.

I reckon experts on the matter, can only judge if a painting is an authentic piece of art or not, by the technique used at the time it was painted.

B) If you read everything I wrote above about Edwin's Painting, you have certainly read I took the frame off the painting, and I touched it with my fingers over the brushstrokes. Therefore, I have no shroud of a doubt it is definitely not a print. The brushstrokes are constant everywhere of the painting too. Especially where the white waves are, I could feel extremely well the brushstrokes in my fingers. If it was not true, I didn’t have the nerve to be replying to you and would keep my mouth shut. I would admit defeat and would tell you it is definitely a print.

C) Take a look at the post I put on 7 January 2020, at 22:40 in my reply to Jimmy. If you click on the “Signature 4” link, you clearly see that the signature, matches E Steele signatures, but it is far from perfect as you claim. Some of the letters are covered by bits of painting. Besides, I have another painting where I can see the perfect signature, and so I accepted it when Vitiato said it to me. I acknowledged the other painting, with the perfect signature, it had been done with the sole purpose of selling well in the market.

Sorry Angelo when I wrote it, it was very late and I totally forgot to write "Regards" to you too.


Teresa Coutinho

Edited by - MTC on Mar 18 2020 04:54:25
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angelo
Junior Member

Italy
185 Posts

Posted - Mar 18 2020 :  02:26:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The fact is that I'm used to discuss about what I could see on the photos , if these let me able to do this , otherwise we're talking about nothing.
Just for curiosity , why did you write this thread if you are so sure about your ideas?
Thank you.

Regards

Angelo

Edited by - angelo on Mar 18 2020 02:27:16
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Posted - Mar 18 2020 :  04:07:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Good Morning Angelo

You said you based your judgement on the photos you saw. I put enough photos for you to be able to see how the painting looks like.

I must confess, when I put the painting here, I was unsure whether it was a print or not, and of its authenticity, but by discussing with you and the other members of this company, I was able to learn a lot more about the painting.

So far I learned it is definitely not a print, and of its authenticity, I am 90% sure it is. If you compare my painting with the one of this link here below, you can easily see what I mean.

https://www.ukauctioneers.com/auction_catalogue.cfm?d&itemID=20E9CB0FD7D62AFDDFE1FECEFF5809E4EA26A3C2&auction=21ECCB06D1&action=13&rangepage=13

This reproduction house was unable to reproduce the bad weather as it was felt on that day. Therefore, I am sure it is not as easy as some people make me believe it was, painting it. Besides, whole along the shore, depicting all the ghost buildings which are present there, I believe it was awfully difficult to paint it.

So sorry if I reiterate myself, but I valued your view point hugely, because without it, I wouldn’t be able to know this painting better.

I have learned it is classed under the name “antiques and collectables” and it has got a name, which is “Shipping in the Thames Estuary". A reproduction of it is in a Auction House. How could I have learned it without the help of you and the others?

If someone comes here and tells me the Technic used on this painting it was not of the end of the nineteen century, then I then will accept it, because I don’t have any formation on that field. If you see what I mean.

Well, Angelo “many thanks again” for your words about this painting I really appreciated it a lot.

Kind regards





Teresa Coutinho
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Posted - Mar 20 2020 :  02:36:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Good Morning Again Angelo

On the link I am putting here below, you have the confirmation to what I had said to you about the conservation of a painting:

https://nga.gov.au/conservation/prevention/painting.cfm fbclid=IwAR2Fb__uRY5R7r712QDj5zu5EkjfqI1UsuvyRdflgDbGBgTZSTkrtl1RytA


My suspicions were accurate. As I had said to you, I was going to investigate and I did.

Regards




Teresa Coutinho
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Posted - Apr 07 2020 :  19:02:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
More information on E Steele and his relatives


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SpvbbwGY0-DNRHiSBEMYb8GmzAlO-Ffo/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YC762ORYZumEYc89wdV3edYOvXPwP7U4/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BjhYzilua82HypBfhzyntyGtVHXOx_jY/view?usp=sharing

Teresa Coutinho
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Posted - Apr 10 2020 :  14:25:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A Big Piece of the Puzzle that was missing: We cannot always rely on the Census results for the family names.

Edwin Steele's son born in 1861, was named Edward James Steele on his Birth Certificate, and not Edwin James Steele, as many people think. Please click on the link below, to have the evidence of it.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dEeVttgM_rDi_SO9yejWAapxj0UYEZGx/view?usp=sharing


Teresa Coutinho

Edited by - MTC on Apr 10 2020 14:26:17
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