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 Louis Apol
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kees
Junior Member

Netherlands
75 Posts

Posted - Dec 12 2019 :  03:08:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Own this old painting dated in age beginning 1900 by appraiser but no verdict about a real Louis Apol or by a follower . A lot of restoring is needed and lot's of craquelé on the paint .

But found a Apol sold by Christies as real Apol with a similar craquelé and colour in 2008 . So anybody is able to tell me more about this painting and the way to recognise real or copy in the style off ? The one sold by Christies is the last picture . Thanks



ATTACHMENTS:
louis apol (8) (Medium).JPG
louis apol (20) (Medium).JPG
louis apol (4) (Medium).JPG
apol christies 2008.jpg

kmurban
Senior Member

USA
728 Posts

Posted - Dec 12 2019 :  07:08:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nice painting. If it were mine I would contact one of the major auction houses and say I have a Louis Apol painting I'm considering selling. Could I please get a sale estimate.

Also something to consider is I've seen paintings at auction listed as attributes but sell for 10 times the estimate and vice versa. Ultimately it's the bidder who decides if it's real or not.

As far as condition, from the photos at least it doesn't really look that bad. But would need many more photos to back that statement up.

K.

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kees
Junior Member

Netherlands
75 Posts

Posted - Dec 13 2019 :  02:22:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for your message and I agree it looks good and from the time Apol was active . But in the art world in the Netherlands its not easy to get a proper appraiser because it's a close world among the experts . So to find a expert who is willing to tell if it's a real Apol or after Apol with the facts about the differences between them is not easy. So a bit frustrating .
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arb
Senior Member

Netherlands
797 Posts

Posted - Dec 13 2019 :  02:28:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The small letter 'n.' in front of the name has been clumsily scratched away. It meant 'naar' =after Louis Apol. A tiny spot of the letter is even visible.

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kmurban
Senior Member

USA
728 Posts

Posted - Dec 13 2019 :  06:06:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Good eye arb. It even looks to have been over painted too. You can see some new paint in the old craquler.
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kees
Junior Member

Netherlands
75 Posts

Posted - Dec 13 2019 :  12:16:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Had a good look with my electronic microscope and it looks a bit like a discoloring but there's no trace off scratching on the place where the N may have been . Made 4 pictures from the suspect area to see .


ATTACHMENTS:
S20191213_0003 (Medium).jpg
S20191213_0004 (Medium).jpg
S20191213_0005 (Medium).jpg
S20191213_0006 (Medium).jpg
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kmurban
Senior Member

USA
728 Posts

Posted - Dec 13 2019 :  12:51:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Do you have a uvl black light ?
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kees
Junior Member

Netherlands
75 Posts

Posted - Dec 13 2019 :  13:16:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
off course so made two pictures for you to see . One bij small dark flashlight and one by uv tube light


ATTACHMENTS:
IMG_1725 (Medium).JPG
IMG_1727 (Medium).JPG
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kmurban
Senior Member

USA
728 Posts

Posted - Dec 13 2019 :  14:51:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So why don't you contact Christie's in Amsterdam and get a auction estimate ?
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kees
Junior Member

Netherlands
75 Posts

Posted - Dec 14 2019 :  03:19:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well I have done a estimate by Sotheby's but no interest there see text (After thoughtful review, our specialists have determined that this item falls below our selling threshold. Unfortunately, we are unable to value your property or offer it at auction. For this item, we recommend that you contact a local auctioneer to discuss alternative selling options.

But also going to ask Christies soon to see what comes out but i do it online so based on the pictures only .
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arb
Senior Member

Netherlands
797 Posts

Posted - Dec 14 2019 :  07:56:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No local auction house will sell it either as its market value is zero.
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kees
Junior Member

Netherlands
75 Posts

Posted - Dec 14 2019 :  08:53:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't think that a painting if turned down for a auction by one off the big auction houses automatically has a zero value after that . Even after or in the style off whatever painter could have a value especially if the painting is as good as . And are also sold by the same mayor auction houses so ?
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arb
Senior Member

Netherlands
797 Posts

Posted - Dec 14 2019 :  10:23:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The value is zero not because it was dismissed by an auction expert, I was one myself. The value is zero because this is one of thousands of cheap Apol copies you find at flea markets with the 'n.' maliciously removed. All of them silly eyesores, all of them worthless.

At AAG Amsterdam a smaller Apol fetched € 7.500 just over a week ago and one the size of yours fetched € 18.000 there in June, amply above any threshold. So had this been an original Apol, Sotheby's would have certainly accepted it.
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P/K/S
Junior Member

USA
172 Posts

Posted - Dec 14 2019 :  23:14:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
hey arb, I know Im just a dumb American but ZERO value ? WOW.... amazing

Edited by - P/K/S on Dec 15 2019 01:31:02
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P/K/S
Junior Member

USA
172 Posts

Posted - Dec 15 2019 :  00:24:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
BTW arb, "So had this been an original Apol, Sotheby's would have certainly accepted it" REALLY ? do you think they can tell just by looking at the email pictures? let me tell you little story...in 1985 I purchased beautiful drawing from very well known Arizona artist (I had bill of sale, provenance and also emails exchange with artist from 2008) can not do better than that right ? while ago I sent request to Sothebys to see if they would be interested of selling it for me, I received exactly the same automated message like Kees.
In 2008 estimated value of this drawing was $25000 (artist died in 2011) couple of years ago I contacted "expert" recommended by Balboa Art Museum in San Diego to see if she can put the value on it as of today, and...... I was told that this drawing its not by the artist I bough it from, what a joke those experts are, so at the same time I think it was extremely distasteful and disrespectful to Kees to tell him that his painting value is ZERO, I was just wonder, where did you get this info about paintings with removed N ? could you provide source ?
no offence and nothing personal arb

Edited by - P/K/S on Dec 15 2019 01:28:03
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P/K/S
Junior Member

USA
172 Posts

Posted - Dec 15 2019 :  00:56:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Kees contact this people maybe they can help, they are located in your country
if not far from you, take it there so they can inspected physically
https://www.kunsthandelbies.nl/en/louis-apol/
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arb
Senior Member

Netherlands
797 Posts

Posted - Dec 15 2019 :  08:44:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

P/K/S, these are a few dozen of the hundreds of unsellable Apol imitations with the N on the Dutch market year in year out:

https://www.marktplaats.nl/l/antiek-en-kunst/kunst-schilderijen-klassiek/#q:apol

These paintings were not done by artists, but made to order by children and disabled in social sweatshops avant-la-lettre and, indeed, in prisons, for working class furniture dealers. Honest imitations, meant not as art, but as cheap wall decorations over the couch. And today worth zero.

As for auction houses' replies: my valuation has nothing to do with Sotheby's dismissal. Some unexperienced 'christeby' experts would indeed sooner reject a difficult query than risk their repute or even job on a misjudgement. But all correspondance is periodically checked by superiors nowadays and such goofs are a thing of the past. That said, dozens and dozens of valuable Apols have gone through the hands of Mrs.de Clercq, Christie's head of 19thC. Department for decades and today Sotheby's Amsterdam GM, on whose desk Kees' photo has, via London, eventually landed. She needs no more than a second for this painting.

As for the extreme distastefulness and disrespectfulness you ascribe to me, I find it more disrespectful to waste people's time by encouraging them to pursue illusions that I know will end in ever mounting disappointment. Like urging someone to incur senseless costs, time and energy for travel to Eindhoven where an email and a phonecall will do perfectly well. And even more disrespectful if you haven't the foggiest what the painting is about.

So if I know (not think, but know beyond a shadow of a doubt) a painting is in art market terms rubbish, I will explain why it has no commercial value. And answer sensible comments. And if the point is – deliberately or undeliberately – not taken, I may call rubbish rubbish. Sin ceremonia. If swept aside, fine by me. I've tried to be of service. I am glad to have a car mechanic who, if need be, firmly underlines what I apparently don't want to hear. And a doctor, too. But next time I can answer one of your questions, I'll try to remember your feelings are the priority. And facts are immaterial.
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kees
Junior Member

Netherlands
75 Posts

Posted - Dec 15 2019 :  13:12:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you p/k/s for the link to the art dealer . Going to have contact with them this coming week .

And to arb : I once had a painting looked at AAG auctioneers in Amsterdam by person to the expert and it was put down as a print with some painting on it . Done by the expert off AAG and a student expert with the painting in there hands to look and exam . Later on it was sold to a known expert art dealer who did agree with me that the painting was real completely painted so not a print with paint by the painter who signed it . So experts can make mistakes and put your painting down as from follower or a fake work with a real artwork by the painter who signed it .
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MTC
New Member

United Kingdom
25 Posts

Posted - Jan 05 2020 :  09:20:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Kees, I like your painting very much too.

A few times I contacted Sotheby's about my paintings and I received similar replies to yours.

I totally agree with you, experts can make mistakes too. So, when I have a painting and it is turned down by an Auction house, I am rather disappointed by their comments, but it doesn't make me like the painting less. I keep all the paintings for myself with pleasure.

Besides, I am rather astonished that nobody here asked you to show us the back of your painting. The back of it is as important as the front. Can you put here a photograph of it, please?

Regards

Teresa Coutinho
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kees
Junior Member

Netherlands
75 Posts

Posted - Jan 10 2020 :  09:44:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here's a few pictures from the backside off the painting for you to see


ATTACHMENTS:
louis apol (2) (Medium).JPG
louis apol (11) (Medium).JPG
louis apol (1) (Medium).JPG
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MTC
New Member

United Kingdom
25 Posts

Posted - Jan 10 2020 :  16:10:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kees

Here's a few pictures from the backside off the painting for you to see



Kees, many thanks for putting a few photographs of the back of your painting.

I don't think it is a copy, because when it is, the house which normally did it, puts a stamp saying they did it.

In the United kingdom, some of the reproductions have a copyright stamp of the company which reproduced it. I have a few, so one learns to distinguish between an authentic painting and a copy.

I have a reproduction of a Cezanne painting done in Paris, and on the back of the painting, it is written how many copies the author has done.

Your painting looks old to me, too.

I visited Washington DC a many years ago, and liked it a lot.

Regards,



Teresa Coutinho

Edited by - MTC on Jan 10 2020 19:37:02
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P/K/S
Junior Member

USA
172 Posts

Posted - Jan 19 2020 :  15:00:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
kees, did you have a chance to contact that gallery ? I see that your painting has major repair done, I was just wonder why anyone in the past invest some substantial amount of money to fix it, if like arb says it is worth nothing, this is another reason for you to investigate further
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kees
Junior Member

Netherlands
75 Posts

Posted - Feb 06 2020 :  09:00:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry for the late answer and was not able to react . So thank you MTC and P/K/S for your reactions and will still be searching about this painting . Found a painting off Apol sold at Christies and it was High Definition so zooming in showed me exactly the same grazing and craquelé as on my painting and this one is sold for a good amount as from this painter and not as copy .

My painting is old and coming from the time this painter was active and the repair has been done also a long time ago but it's hard to get a proper judgement in the closed world off art experts here in the Netherlands . So not easy to find a proper explanation why my painting is a copy but just only the text copy without the fact's why ? So very frustrating as is
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goofy
New Member

USA
40 Posts

Posted - Feb 06 2020 :  15:32:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The world of Dutch art experts is more open than anywhere else, far more so than Bond Street or Drouot. When confronted with an object of value, they will try to make a profit. If they don't try the reason is obvious.

The one infallible way to have an item judged is to put it up for bidding on the web, in Holland at Speurders or Marktplaats. The owner is under no obligation to sell whatsoever. If a painting has any value, buyers will start bidding. If they do, you have your answer and you can take it off the site. If they don't the message is clear: neither dealers nor collectors want it.
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kees
Junior Member

Netherlands
75 Posts

Posted - Feb 08 2020 :  04:37:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Think it's maybe better if the experts I have asked explain to me why this painting is a copy instead only it is a copy I do compare the techniques on-line and I do find similarity's on my painting and sold paintings by Christies from this artist . Maybe a proper look in person by a expert would be the trick that brings more lightness to my painting . Photo is my painting and a Christies sold painting with the same kind off crackle in the paint .


ATTACHMENTS:
craqule apol (Medium).jpg
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