paulkyriakides
13 years ago
photo of painting taken in better lighting conditions
paulkyriakides
13 years ago
A reference here to a possible copy in Russia

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=11077.65;wap2 

843 Unknown Artist

Three women feeding swans

Size 0,37 x 0,38 Oil on canvas

What unit of measure is this?
Vietato
13 years ago
quote:
Originally posted by paulkyriakides




Size 0,37 x 0,38 Oil on canvas



What unit of measure is this?




The unit must be meter:

´´the fundamental unit of length in the metric system, equivalent to 39.37 U.S. inches, originally intended to be, and being very nearly, equal to one ten-millionth of the distance from the equator to the pole measured on a meridian: defined from 1889 to 1960 as the distance between two lines on a platinum-iridium bar (the “International Prototype Meter”) preserved at the International Bureau of Weights and Measures near Paris; from 1960 to 1983 defined as 1,650,763.73 wavelengths of the orange-red radiation of krypton 86 under specified conditions; and now defined as 1/299,792,458 of the distance light travels in a vacuum in one second. Abbreviation: m´´



That makes sense also when taken the mentioned watercolors into account.



Regards,

Vietato



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TLWilliams
13 years ago
´´The fact that people who orginally doubted its authenticity are still following leads tells me something!´´


It tells you that we help people that post on the forum. Saintluc merely identified the source of the original image and is trying to track it down. If it wern´t for him, you wouldn´t be ´loving the suspense´. As for me, the gulf in quality between your painting and this painting by Hopfgarten is huge - the chiaroscuro, drapery, and moulding of the hands and face are in another league altogether.

http://iako.livejournal.com/244386.html 

Maybe Hopfgarten was having a bad day. If that´s the scenario, regrettably you will not be able to sell your painting. The gallery would place an embargo on it and may even try to seize it.

Fortunately though, it´s a copy, so you´ll be able to continue enjoying it.




Director, Pieta Fine Art Ltd

www.pietafineart.com

saintluc
13 years ago
A painting that´s not in the Lost internet database and not in the ´´verlorene werke..´´ of Ms Bernhard? That´s turning clownish!

Bernhard, Marianne. Verlorene Werke der Malerei. In Deutschland in der Zeit von 1939 bis 1945 zerstörte und verschollene Gemälde. Beratende Mitarbeit von Kurt Martin. Hrsg. v. Klaus P. Rogner. Mchn., Ackermann, (1965). 4°. 232 SS. Katalog + Reg., 1 Bl. Impr. Mit 229 (225 ganzseit., davon 4 farb.) Tafelabb. OLwd. in Schuber m. Treppchen.

Titel + Schutzumschlag in Rot + Schwarz. – Mit den Berliner Verlusten (Märkisches Museum / Staatliche Museen-Gemäldegalerie / National-Galerie / Staatliche Schlösser + Gärten) als dominantem Block auf den SS. 10-77 nebst entsprechendem Bildteil...

http://www.lostart.de/Webs/EN/Datenbank/SucheSimpelErgebnis.html?param=SUCHE_ID%3D1655459 
saintluc
13 years ago
Well! Isn´t our now ´´funny paul´´ speaking as if a grateful ambassador of Germany would hold feverishly the opened diplomatic pouch? I notice just now that paulkyriakides recently (oct 23) change his first post, where he said that he was going to throw away this painting when his wife stop him. He was right to study Art and right again by not owning this gallery any longer. Indeed, I begin to understand the specimen who hates to be catched out and will fly in the face of facts. It must be cool to work with. He wrote somewhere that the property he bought and found this painting in belonged in the past to a skilful lawyer. So, except the vanishing of the ´´aw´´, nothing has changed.
paulkyriakides
13 years ago
Quote from: Alexandra Bauer

´´Dear Mr. Kyriakides,

As curator responsable for German, Dutch and Flemish Paintings, I received your mail of October 11 concerning the Hopfgarten-painting.
Our Hopfgarten painting ´´maidens feeding swans´´ is indeed a war loss since 1945.

May I ask you tell me the dimensions of the painting? ........

With best regards,



Alexandra Bauer

DONT YOU LOVE THE SUSPENSE?
paulkyriakides
13 years ago
Saintluc i already checked that link when i received the email from Dr.Birgit Verwiebe from Alte Nationalgalerie but who am i to argue with curator Alexandra Bauer from spsg.

The fact that people who orginally doubted its authenticity are still following leads tells me something!

No i wont say it out loud again for fear of retribution but you know what i am thinking.

Also thank you for posting on this thread again its not my intention to piss people off.

I am no expert but i have owned a gallery and studied art.
paulkyriakides
13 years ago
´´Life is not perfect and neither is the internet if it were there would be no questions left to ask and no mysteries to seak, this is what makes life so interesting. ´´ Paul Kyriakides 2011
paulkyriakides
13 years ago
Oh boy this forum should be called find a moron!

Wolkenblau thank you: I handed my wife a roll of plastic and told her to throw it out. She unravelled the plastic, what made her do this i will never know and inside was a painting, my heart skipped a beat because if she had listened to me we would have never known the existance of this painting and some people on this forum would have never made complete arseholes of themselves!
paulkyriakides
13 years ago
p.s. just a reminder to certain people: dont forget to take a screen shot so you can W%^K yourself to sleep.
shawnster
13 years ago
Hello and thanks for looking, this is directed to the experts on this form,such as tl willams and saintluc .Tl willams said ,I would just like to point out that Saintluc has more expertise than every regional auction picture ´specialist´ combined and tl willams also said It tells you that we help people that post on the forum.I like to point out that i am know art expert ,i just like to collect and appreciate what i collect.I would have helped more people ,but i am just learning my self and find it hard to help a whole lot.I appreciate everyone that has helped me ,but i have asked some very basic questions on my last few post and have not had any response from tl willams or saintuc.two in particular native american and 18/19 century drawing/ post and getting authenticity of a oil painting from the artist.Sence tl willams and saintluc are so willing to help,ether one are welcome to reply to those post ,unless there is a reason they do not want to.[:)]

SHAWN THOMPSON
wolkenblau
13 years ago
unless ´´funny paul´´ edits it too, here´s what he posted on annother forum:

http://www.artconversation.com/questions/9781-please-can-somebody-help-feeding-swans.html 

in case it will have been edited: here it´s him who´s throwing out the painting. so mr kyriakides´ honor is restored - as far his supposed hermaphrodite existence is concerned.
Ercole
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13 years ago
But, no. Said that she was throwing away the painting, when her ´´husband´´ had stopped her!

It deals with the only case of hermaphrodite in this forum.

Fausta

http://www.ippolitonievo.info 

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Ercole
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13 years ago
Riportiamo il discorso sul retto binario e, per favore, non lasciamolo più.

Augusto Ferdinando Hopfgarten era tornato dall’Italia a Berlino nel 1833. A Roma era entrato in contatto con artisti famosi, come Thorvaldsen, e con facoltosi committenti, favorito dal fatto di essere nipote di un famoso scultore tedesco che aveva lavorato anche al Palazzo del Quirinale.

Il catalogo delle opere incise Nagler, edizione 1835, elenca una lunga serie di opere del famoso incisore tedesco Carl Wildt. Tra queste, c’è anche l’incisione tratta dal dipinto di Augusto Ferdinando Hopfgarten e intitolata “Ragazze che alimentano cigni”. Quindi, l’opera pittorica di Augusto Ferdinando risale almeno agli anni 1833-1835. Non è ipotizzabile infatti che una tela grande sia stata portata dall’Italia.

Il dipinto di Augusto Ferdinando fu acquistato dal Re Federico Guglielmo III (morto nel1840, dopo oltre quaranta anni di regno) e potrebbe essere stato commissionato. Da notare la figura a destra, che tiene in mano un mandolino di grandi proporzioni e forse canta. La ragazza al centro ha un braccio al petto della ragazza di sinistra, per impedirle di scivolare in acqua mentre getta l’alimento ai cigni. La ragazza al centro sembra aspirare il profumo che emana la pelle della compagna. Il quadro potrebbe significare l’esaltazione dei cinque sensi: udito (musica), odorato (la pelle della compagna), tatto (la mano), gusto (l’alimento) e vista (l’insieme della scena).

L’incisione di Carl Wildt, in folio, era una prima stampa, tirata su carta di Cina.

Nel catalogo delle opere incise Weigel, (edito nel 1838, pagina 435) la stessa incisione di Carl Wildt è segnalata al numero 52a, nell’elenco delle sue incisioni – originali o tratte da dipinti di altri artisti - dove figurano anche suoi ritratti incisi del Re di Prussia, di principesse tedesche e di dignitari di Corte. Si vendeva a Berlino, alla Galleria di F. Hanfataengl - che era lo stampatore - a 3 thlr. su foglio semplice, a 3 thlr. e 16 grani su carta di Cina e a 5 thlr. su carta di Cina e con didascalia sul recto.

La tiratura delle incisioni di Carl Wildt doveva essere ampia e questo giustifica il successo e la diffusione del tema romantico delle ragazze al bordo di un laghetto con cigni, tema che fu ripreso da altri, anche su supporti diversi (tappezzeria, porcellana).

Le copie del dipinto (fatte da altri artisti) forse erano numerose, anche perché alcuni anni più tardi Augusto Ferdinando Hopfgarten insegnò all’Accademia e aveva molti seguaci.

Con i primi bollori estivi, un nuvolo di zanzare infette si riversava dalla campagna su la città di Roma che si svuotava dei suoi abitanti. Hopfgarten ne approfittava per tornare a casa, anche perché si era impegnato ad affrescare una cappella funeraria. Quindi, è possibile che il dipinto “Ragazze che alimentano cigni” risalga alla fine degli anni Venti dell’Ottocento. Questa ipotesi è in linea con le pettinature delle tre ragazze che sono tipiche, non del Rinascimento fiorentino, bensì dello stile post-Impero, che nel campo dei mobili antichi viene indicato come “Carlo X”. Gli abiti indossati dalle ragazze ricordano la moda austro-tedesca della stessa epoca e non quella cinquecentesca fiorentina. Quindi, una scena contemporanea. Il giardino all´italiana è di gusto barocco.

Scusate se scrivo in italiano, ma per me è complicato fare sempre la traduzione.

Fausta

http://www.ippolitonievo.info 

web master
saintluc
13 years ago
shawnster :See with mom, dad´s working![:D]

Sorry, Only a joke with the title of a french movie. To say that this thread is sufficiently intricate and doesn´t need any more. Add a comma or a dot to your posts and bump it up.[;)]
saintluc
13 years ago
So, some lucky men get a disobedient wife![:)]

We have now to become serious again because this forum could be known by such distant Artlover and -ouch!- also London executive chairman of the investments company we work for and I am not sure he would appreciate the bad image of an inappropriate vocabulary or attitude, especially for those who appear with their real name.

Besides, we do like paulkyriakides and his funny habit to distort the facts by erasing or modifying his own posts after minutes, days or weeks. That makes a living and successfull thread although difficult to follow up and expensive for headache.

Moreover, to Google (1) ´´August Ferdinand Hopfgarten´´ quickly leads to findartinfo and so´´schwäne fütternde mädchen´´ as second result. So, courage paulkyriakides, you are working for Art History! Thenceforth, back to our job.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_%28verb%29 

========================

You are right, who are we ´´to argue with curator Alexandra Bauer´´? But waiting for more informations, we can suppose that this lady established his answer on some catalogue and maybe this exact one about which a former curator wrote : ´´The general catalogue lists by mistake all the works by August Hopfgarten´´ (Gert Bartoschek : Zertört, entführt, verschollen : die verluste der preussischen Schlösser im Zweiten Weltkrieg, vol.1 : ´´Generalkatalog falschlich als Werk von August Hopfgarten eingetragen´´)

But no matter here to bury your eyes in the sand. Coming from some german museum or not, your painting is a copy. As TLWilliams says, there is nothing common between his works and yours and the ´´Torquato Tasso´´ he refers to (and so you did) was done some months and maybe weeks only from the ´´ladies feeding swans´´. And no serious observer would think that these heads are by the same hand. (see attachment 1).

Besides, there is a technical impossibility. Your painting is obviously done on a canvas industrially whitened. Now it was impossible to find such canvas on the market in 1840. There were canvas with pre-coating since the eighteenth century but allways manually and with small scale production and it have a very different apparence. Some craftsmen or artists are searching yet in 1845/50 for a satisfying system (Among them the marine painter and curator of the Musée de Rouen Hyppolite Garneray) and it was only in the International fair of 1851 that a Mr Haro won a medall for a pre-impressed canvas and only 8 m.long.

That does not mean that your painting is not interesting. With some chance (not for the Art) you own the only subsisting painted version of this composition. No reason to look glum.















saintluc
13 years ago
You are pefectly right Ercole about these clothes of the florentine renaissance that do not look so accurate. So much that a catalog listed a lithograph after this painting as ´´women in ancient german costume...´´. I am not at home but will post some more precise reference later.

_____________________

edit :

Neues allgemeines Künstler Lexicon vol.21 p445 numb.52 of the works by Wildt Carl

´´Mädchen im altdeutschen Costüm, welche schwäne füttern, nach Hopfgarten..´´
paulkyriakides
13 years ago
Ok so now i will have the painting restored and find a place for it.

Maybe by some miracle a signature will be revealed under all the dirt.

See attached, another area of varnish Anthony removed, very different, so there is a posibilty we might find something.



Unless of course somebody is prepared to make me an obscene offer?
saintluc
13 years ago
1-In fact the lithophanie is exactly the one found by hercules brabazon at a Tennant´s auction (post of october 21). The seller did not even clean it before to ask for a serious profit.

2-R20000=about 2500$? Do you mean that you did´nt think so...much?

3-The tasks of the Koordinierungsstelle is clearly explained here

http://www.lostart.de/Webs/EN/Koordinierungsstelle/Aufgaben.html 

I can´t help you in this case because I don´t know the life of the ´´schwäne..´´ Painted in 1840, it is said, as you know, to have been in the collection of the king of Prussia but an inventory of 1856 does not quote this painting besides seven other Hopfgarten I found in. I guess you could have the same kindness the german curator had : no answer![;)]
paulkyriakides
13 years ago
Thank you Saintluc.

The lithopane looks identical to the painting even the faces.

A lithograph, a needle work and now a lithopane but still no painting.

Well not exactly true, i know where you can find the only painting in existence...............it is with me lol!
paulkyriakides
13 years ago
The latest offer i have received is R20 000.00

i DONT THINK SO!
paulkyriakides
13 years ago
Saintluc i received an email today asking me to sign the attached declaration form from:

Koordinierungsstelle Magdeburg

Susanne Zwick M.A. / Dokumentation

Turmschanzenstraße 32

D-39114 Magdeburg

Telefon +49 (0) 391 - 5 67 38 95

Telefax +49 (0) 391 - 5 67 38 99

mailto:susanne.zwick@mk.sachsen-anhalt.de

www.lostart.de

www.kulturgutschutz-deutschland.de

What does this mean?
paulkyriakides
12 years ago
if nothing else my photographic skills have improved a lot during this forum. photoshopped

http://paulkyriakides.deviantart.com/art/art-274537159?q=gallery%3Apaulkyriakides%20randomize%3A1&qo=1 
jhomejimbo
12 years ago
Overkill on this artwork has made all insertions and postings very boring.
It seems that you have over-exposed. This constant ´bumping´, in my estimation, is not good for the forum, or for interest in your art. [V].
Jimmy
paulkyriakides
12 years ago
A GERMAN ENAMEL AND GOLD SNUFF-BOX

by Charles Colins Sons, marked, Hanau, circa 1840

Rectangular box, the cover centred with an oval enamel plaque depicting three maiden feeding two swans, within a blue enamelled border, on a matted gold panel cast with scrolling foliage, scrollwork and fleur-de-lys spandrels, the sides and base with rectangular panels of engine-turning framed by foliage bands on a matted ground

36 in. (90 mm.) wide

paulkyriakides
12 years ago
´´A painting that´s not in the Lost internet database and not in the ´´verlorene werke..´´ of Ms Bernhard? That´s turning clownish!´´

The painting is listed in this book:Zerstört, entführt, verschollen, on p. 241.

[:o)]
paulkyriakides
12 years ago
Dimensions seem a little large in comparison to other sources?
saintluc
12 years ago
quote:
Originally posted by saintluc


...........................................................´´ (Gert Bartoschek : Zertört, entführt, verschollen : die verluste der preussischen Schlösser im Zweiten Weltkrieg, vol.1 : ´´Generalkatalog falschlich als Werk von August Hopfgarten eingetragen´´)

.................................................................




Holy s...! Google books said there were no Hopfgarten in this book of Bartoschek! Rascals!

That is not breaching the accuracy of my remark since the text does not mean that the painting disappeared but only that it was damaged during a raid.

Am I right? wasbach and other friends from Goethe´s land?
saintluc
12 years ago
Dear wasbach,

I did not speak about the ´´citation´´. My question is about the file that paulkyriakides attached to his last post (attached again here) : Does it mean -as I tranlated- that the painting was damaged in a raid (or destroy) and not that it disappeared?
saintluc
12 years ago
Many thanks wasbach and also for the help about Hazleton streets name[;)]
paulkyriakides
12 years ago
´´Life is not perfect and neither is Google if it were there would be no questions left to ask and no mysteries to seak, this is what makes life so interesting. ´´ Paul Kyriakides 2011
wasbach
12 years ago
quote:
Originally posted by saintluc

...........................................................´´ (Gert Bartoschek : Zertört, entführt, verschollen : die verluste der preussischen Schlösser im Zweiten Weltkrieg, vol.1 : ´´Generalkatalog falschlich als Werk von August Hopfgarten eingetragen´´)
Unfortunately I´m not capable to read and understand everything in this topic,

so probably everybody knows already:

but ´´fälschlich´´ is ´´falsely´´ ´´wrongly´´, so considered not as a work of Hopfgarten.

Regards

Wasbach
wasbach
12 years ago
Excuse me, Saintluc.

If in an official description there is twice the world ´´angeblich´´ - ´´allegedly´´ , supposedly´´ -, I would think, ´´nothing is really sure´´.

´´Angeblich nur beschädigt´´ sounds in my ears like ´´There is much doubt that it was only damaged´´ - nothing about ´´raped´´, more like ´´probably totally destroyed´´. (What would stabilize my opinion that it cannot be found anywhere, because it was destroyed.)

Regards

Wasbach
paulkyriakides
12 years ago
remember the litghograph, needle work and recently found snuff box, all depict corn not bread
Ercole
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12 years ago
Era un tentativo per allentare la tensione, per fare tacere Paulkyriakides e finire tutto con una risata: non ci sono riuscita.

Però, a quella storia strana e strampalata, qualcuno aveva creduto... O no?

Una storia ´´metropolitana´´, una di quelle storie che si raccontano per passare il tempo e far ridere e che alla fine passano quasi per vere...

C´è il vero e c´è il verosimile... c´è l´astratto e c´è il concreto... c´è il dubbio e c´è la certezza... c´è l´originale e c´è la copia... c´è l´ipotesi e c´è la verifica... se qui si parla d´Arte, dovete essere pronti ad accettare la fantasia, quando manca un anello di congiunzione tra quello che abbiamo oggi sotto gli occhi, e che possimo verificare, e quello che c´era una volta e che forse è andato perduto.

Qui è notte fonda.

Fausta

Vietato
12 years ago
At one time there was a post in this thread quoting a text that mentioned copies of this painting where the original bread in the basket was substituted with cobs, and that this was popular in brothels.



I think the language of the text was not English, but I don´t remember who posted it.

If the text was accurate, then any painting with cobs instead of bread would not be the original.



Was it merely a joke, since it has now been deleted?



Regards,

Vietato



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Vietato
12 years ago
Thanks wolkenblau - I thought it was in this thread, where it rightfully belongs.

Can Ercole tell the origin of this information?



Regards,

Vietato



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Vietato
12 years ago
Translation: ´´It was an attempt to ease tensions, to silence Paulkyriakides and finish everything with a laugh: I did not succeed.

But that story strange and outlandish, someone might believe ... Or not?

An ´´urban legend´´, one of those stories that are told to pass the time and make you laugh and eventually pass almost for real ...

There is the true and there is the plausible ... there is the abstract and the concrete ... There is doubt and certainty ... There is the original and the copy ... there is the possibility and there is the verification ... If we are talking about art, you must be prepared to accept the fantasy, where there is no link between what we have today under the eyes […] and what was once, and which perhaps has been lost .

Here it is night.´´



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bohdan9@tlen.pl
12 years ago
Bravo Fausta ! Grazie Vietato!

Bohdan.