Thank you for your reply.

I am going to post some more close up pic where the paint is already missing.

quote:

---

Originally posted by kungzi


Hi Marie,

I could be wrong, but my first impression is, that this is a worked over print on wooden panel, late 19th century. Better detailed pics if possible.

regards

kungzi

---

I looked already on whatever is available on the web on representation of Columbus.

Here is what I found from the Columbus Gallery by Ponce de Leon

http://home.casema.nl/r.vanderkrogt/columbus_gallery/historical_paintings.html 

and also another one by Eugene Deveria

http://www.allposters.com/gallery.asp?aid=85097&apnum=1345055&LinkTypeID=1&PosterTypeID=1&DestType=7&Referrer%20=http://www.artcyclopedia.com/artists/deveria_eugene.html 

But they don´t look like mine.

Thank you again for your reply and any other expert opinion.

quote:

---

Originally posted by kungzi


Probably done for the the 400th anniversary of Columbus’s discovery of America in 1892,

guess saintluc or wasbach will find the original for you.

regards

kungzi

---

Hi Marie,

I could be wrong, but my first impression is, that this is a worked over print on wooden panel, late 19th century. Better detailed pics if possible.

regards

kungzi

Probably done for the the 400th anniversary of Columbus’s discovery of America in 1892,

guess saintluc or wasbach will find the original for you.

regards

kungzi

8http://www.virtualmuseum.info/press/103.asp 

---

Hi Marie,



Sorry to be remiss about this, haven´t had much time to do anything. I´m a bit stumped really, iconographically this is the closest I can find:



http://imagecache.allposters.com/images/pic/MEPOD/10053056~Columbus-is-Welcomed-Back-by-Fernando-and-Isabel-at-Barcelona-Spain-Posters.jpg 



Date wise I´d suggest 1880-1900 (I think kungzi is right about the anniversary), might be an oleograph of some kind but if so a fairly elaborate one. I´m edging towards it being entirely painted, but with a poor quality oil paint - very dry and flakey. Execution is a bit on the crude side, but it has charm and is a commercial subject. I´ll keep looking, but I expect saintluc to pop up any moment with the answer.....

---

www.pietafineart.com



Old Masters, New Eyes

Fine Art Gallery, Brighton Museum & Art Gallery

11 July 2007 - 10 February 2008

http://www.virtualmuseum.info/press/103.asp 

Thank you again for all the opinions and more are welcome

these are an interesting links for the subject.

http://philatelydominicanorder.org/diego_of_deza.htm 

and extract of the Ponce de Leon book

http://home.casema.nl/r.vanderkrogt/columbus_gallery/historical_paintings.html 

My opinion is that interesting painting could be a study for a great painting around 1840/45 of the french Antoine Placide Gibert (Bordeaux 1806, Bordeaux 1875) but I have not enough time just now. I´ll come back

http://www.newyorkfamilyhistory.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=9 

Related to this litho (I´ve reversed the attached image) somehow although I can´t be credited with finding it:



Artists name is something like Victor A. Samba?



SUMMARY: Christopher Columbus standing before the King and Queen of Spain, with Indians from the New World, Feb. 1493.

MEDIUM: 1 print : chromolithograph.

CREATED/PUBLISHED: Boston : Published by The Prang Educational Co., 1893.

CREATOR:

L. Prang & Co.

---

www.pietafineart.com



Old Masters, New Eyes

Fine Art Gallery, Brighton Museum & Art Gallery

11 July 2007 - 10 February 2008

http://www.virtualmuseum.info/press/103.asp 

Thank you Mr SaintLuc & Williams for your precious opinion and help.

- I am very happy to hear that it is a painting ( not a print ´´boite de chocolat!)

- I am also happy to learn that is is at least mid 19th century.

- Just still searching for the greater painting... but may be it has never been made.

What is the way to date the pigments? I really like it and think it needs to be cleaned and restore. The details become invisible like the parrot , the natives, and a lot of more .

Any advice on a good restorer in Florida?

quote:

---

Originally posted by saintluc


My opinion is that interesting painting could be a study for a great painting around 1840/45 of the french Antoine Placide Gibert (Bordeaux 1806, Bordeaux 1875) but I have not enough time just now. I´ll come back

http://www.newyorkfamilyhistory.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=9 

---

I just find a new painting of the subject from The School of Spain

http://www.oronoz.com/leefoto.php?referencia=185353&usuario= 

I don´t like the reverse of the panel, when painted black it´s most likely not done because the owner like this color.

What ever it is, a poor quaility oil or an overpainted oleography I think its not worth to restore the ravaged surface.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hans_K


I don´t like the reverse of the panel, when painted black it´s most likely not done because the owner like this color.

What ever it is, a poor quaility oil or an overpainted oleography I think its not worth to restore the ravaged surface.

---

Thank you for keeping this Forum challenging!

Here is the link to an old topic where you will see the same panel.

http://forum.findartinfo.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4081&SearchTerms=wood,panel 

I did not think that the paint on the back was so important, usually the artist used to care about the front.

I am hopefull that Mr SaintLuc will answer better than me.

quote:

---

Originally posted by TLWilliams


Yes, paint on the back isn´t generally a good sign as there is no need for it, and when its there it is usually there to deceive or hide something, the panel in the link has nothing done to the back, hence arouses no suspicion.



I hear what your saying kungzi, I just looked closely at the bigger images and the dogs face on the right, plus the faces of the king and queen give the appearance of perhaps a print underneath. However I can´t be certain either way - if this is an overpainted print then we should be able to find either the original painting or a copy of the print somewhere.



Despite this, I maintain that it is a very sought after subject matter and thus prized to any collector of early American history (of which there are many) so if it is an overpainted print or entirely hand painted and designed, either way it has good commercial value.



Thank you Tim for your input!

This is new pics

http://www.flickr.com/photos/37632414@N06/3471046731/in/photostream/ 

Side of panel

http://www.flickr.com/photos/37632414@N06/3471860348/in/photostream/ 

Detail Colombus

http://www.flickr.com/photos/37632414@N06/3471054199/in/photostream/ 

Detail Natives

http://www.flickr.com/photos/37632414@N06/3471056407/in/photostream/ 

Dhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/37632414@N06/3471058719/in/photostream/ 

---

www.pietafineart.com



Old Masters, New Eyes

Fine Art Gallery, Brighton Museum & Art Gallery

11 July 2007 - 10 February 2008

http://www.virtualmuseum.info/press/103.asp 

---

Hi Hans,

thanks for the support.

I stick to my first impression that it is a worked over print. I simply can´t see any sketch, any artist´s idea, a quick sketch that the artist painted. I can only see slow brushwork over a black/ white print. Have a look at the faces, the eyes etc. The print shows through.

The artist might have used asphalt colors for this painting. Those color´s tend to shrink, they never really harden, sort of a bark like effekt. We had a number of similar paintings before in this forum. Asphalt colors can´t be restored, so you´d better save your money.

kind regards

kungzi

Great extra pictures - say, there is small chip/area of missing paint top right (at the top of the curtain) and another below Columbus´s foot - if your camera has a macro or even super macro setting (symbol looks like a little flower) could you get the sharpest and closest image possible of those bits as it will determine what the base or ground is under the paint.



Will spend a couple more hours on this tomorrow, there are some journals I haven´t had the time to search through yet.

---

www.pietafineart.com



Old Masters, New Eyes

Fine Art Gallery, Brighton Museum & Art Gallery

11 July 2007 - 10 February 2008

http://www.virtualmuseum.info/press/103.asp 

Yes, paint on the back isn´t generally a good sign as there is no need for it, and when its there it is usually there to deceive or hide something, the panel in the link has nothing done to the back, hence arouses no suspicion.



I hear what your saying kungzi, I just looked closely at the bigger images and the dogs face on the right, plus the faces of the king and queen give the appearance of perhaps a print underneath. However I can´t be certain either way - if this is an overpainted print then we should be able to find either the original painting or a copy of the print somewhere.



Despite this, I maintain that it is a very sought after subject matter and thus prized to any collector of early American history (of which there are many) so if it is an overpainted print or entirely hand painted and designed, either way it has good commercial value.

---

www.pietafineart.com



Old Masters, New Eyes

Fine Art Gallery, Brighton Museum & Art Gallery

11 July 2007 - 10 February 2008

http://www.virtualmuseum.info/press/103.asp 

Thank you Tim

Here are the pictures you asked

http://www.flickr.com/photos/37632414@N06/3474372084/ 



http://www.flickr.com/photos/37632414@N06/3474366878/in/photostream/ 



http://www.flickr.com/photos/37632414@N06/3473561173/in/photostream/ 

quote:

---

Originally posted by TLWilliams


Great extra pictures - say, there is small chip/area of missing paint top right (at the top of the curtain) and another below Columbus´s foot - if your camera has a macro or even super macro setting (symbol looks like a little flower) could you get the sharpest and closest image possible of those bits as it will determine what the base or ground is under the paint.



Will spend a couple more hours on this tomorrow, there are some journals I haven´t had the time to search through yet.

---

www.pietafineart.com



Old Masters, New Eyes

Fine Art Gallery, Brighton Museum & Art Gallery

11 July 2007 - 10 February 2008

http://www.virtualmuseum.info/press/103.asp 

---

[?] Dear Tim and Mr. SaintLuc

Have you any comment on the last pictures? Where the paint is missing.

I looked up around Placide Gibert but could not find the relation with my painting.

thank you for any help,

Marie

quote:

---

Originally posted by TLWilliams


Great extra pictures - say, there is small chip/area of missing paint top right (at the top of the curtain) and another below Columbus´s foot - if your camera has a macro or even super macro setting (symbol looks like a little flower) could you get the sharpest and closest image possible of those bits as it will determine what the base or ground is under the paint.



Will spend a couple more hours on this tomorrow, there are some journals I haven´t had the time to search through yet.

---

www.pietafineart.com



Old Masters, New Eyes

Fine Art Gallery, Brighton Museum & Art Gallery

11 July 2007 - 10 February 2008

http://www.virtualmuseum.info/press/103.asp 

---

I finally got my blacklight (UV light)

All the new paintings in the house are glowing.

Strangely the Columbus under blacklight looks very uniform and the subjects almost disappear under a green layer. No retouch at all...

No colors ... no white..

Any comments?

Impossible to do pictures of it. If somebody know a way...

Thank you for any comments...

Hi Marie,

at that point I should come up with a clear answer, but I must admit I am bit puzzled. I would have expected to see sort of miniaturized details of a larger painting in the faces section. But they appear to be drawn, weird.

Good idea to use the blacklight, if everything appears greenish-yellow the painting hasn´t been touch or restored for a long period of time.

kind regards

kungzi

1830/40, please... new details came up after saintluc reply, fresh panel beneath the surface and a new varnish panel (reverse side). I guess you forgot to show Christopher Apostle some of the pic, if not please sell it as soon as possible to him and congrats from here as well [:)]

$8,000 is a large value to me.



Congratz!

---

-Chad W.

http://cwysart.etsy.com 

Every dog has its day, this is what somebody send to me:

What a great topic but why didn´t anybody noted that King Richard of England and the two hens he is holding in left hand and the King Charles Spaniel in right hand has this written below the tail:

Artist, Leonardo da Vinci, Year 1491

Even though my magnifying glass broke after the investigation I can still clearly see it.

I tried to reconstruct the dog by scanning please see attachment.

A friendly forum reader sent this message to me and I think the information is certainly worth sharing. Here´s his message:



I am not a forum member but follow the conversations closely.....I am surprised no one has commented on the very apparent lettering on the painting. To see it you must use the higher resolution image supplied (1024x ) by the owner . Look above the head of the boy(page?Prince?) holding the dog, at the rightside armrest beneath Isabella´s raised arms and clasped hands.... In blue on blue color on the edge of a pillow/cover facing the observer , two lines that appear to say:



line one: C I T Y

line two: ? (symbol) A S S or ?(X) A C S ........................or combined CITY (CHI) PASS



The symbol may be the greek X, i.e., CHI, possibly for chicago often referred to by its natives as the city.

The second line, I suspect, identifies an art school bunch or, conveys the meaning of a ´´city pass to the columbia exposition events.´´ I am pursuing the possibility that it´s an art school or transportation system/authority acronym.



To see it I used the forementioned image with the zoom function (100% is enough) in Picassa, with my screen resolution set to 1024x732. I don´t think it a phantom.





Without scanning over the previous messages to see if anyone has brought it up, it makes sense to me that this may have been created in commemoration for the Colombian Exhibition in Chicago at the tail end of the 19th century.

---

-Chad W.

http://cwysart.etsy.com 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Impasto


A friendly forum reader sent this message to me and I think the information is certainly worth sharing. Here´s his message:



I am not a forum member but follow the conversations closely.....I am surprised no one has commented on the very apparent lettering on the painting. To see it you must use the higher resolution image supplied (1024x ) by the owner . Look above the head of the boy(page?Prince?) holding the dog, at the rightside armrest beneath Isabella´s raised arms and clasped hands.... In blue on blue color on the edge of a pillow/cover facing the observer , two lines that appear to say:



line one: C I T Y

line two: ? (symbol) A S S or ?(X) A C S ........................or combined CITY (CHI) PASS



The symbol may be the greek X, i.e., CHI, possibly for chicago often referred to by its natives as the city.

The second line, I suspect, identifies an art school bunch or, conveys the meaning of a ´´city pass to the columbia exposition events.´´ I am pursuing the possibility that it´s an art school or transportation system/authority acronym.



To see it I used the forementioned image with the zoom function (100% is enough) in Picassa, with my screen resolution set to 1024x732. I don´t think it a phantom.





Without scanning over the previous messages to see if anyone has brought it up, it makes sense to me that this may have been created in commemoration for the Colombian Exhibition in Chicago at the tail end of the 19th century.

---

-Chad W.

http://cwysart.etsy.com 

---

Dear Chad:

Thank you for being a good messenger!

I am like your ´´none member ´´ of the forum and look and look again for scripts on this painting. I did not see and still can´t see the one on the pillow.

I don´t think that the school who painted this was speaking English you have to read ´´ville´´ or ´´ciudad´´.

I also look up for the Chicago exposition and found I think on Google book the catalog of the 1893 expo and the only representation of the Barcelona Reception was way far from this one...

http://columbus.gl.iit.edu/ 

However I always look at those, until I got my UV blacklight I thought it was trace of fresh paint from the numerous remodeling in the past 20 years ( this painting since I got it moved in 6 differents homes), but under the blue light it is under the varnish....

Any thoughts are welcome....

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hans_K


1830/40, please... new details came up after saintluc reply, fresh panel beneath the surface and a new varnish panel (reverse side). I guess you forgot to show Christopher Apostle some of the pic, if not please sell it as soon as possible to him and congrats from here as well [:)]

---

First Mr Apostle is the head of the Old Masters department at Sotheby´s

Second what you called a new varnish is at least 100 years old....

Third I own this painting since 1986! and it has never been touched or restore. When I tried to make it restore in France 10 years ago , the restorer from the beaux-arts refused to restore it ( he was a friend of a relative) until I show it to an expert.

I forgot about it until , thanks to that forum I tried to know more about it!!!

I will keep you posted when Sotheby´s will see it in person....





Just came back today from business trip from NYC.

I show the painting to Mr Apostle , head of the 19th european painting department at Sotheby´s.

.

He dated the painting very early 19th Century which eliminates the Chicago Columbus 1893 Expo

Brush away the idea of signs in pillow....



Did not say anything about the back of the panel



Did not want to sell it due to the bad conservation of the painting which for me has never been restored.



He told me to make it cleaned and restored and to ask the Ringling for a restorer.



and nicely took the painting in the back to make somebody replace the old nails on the frame

He also searched for the greater painting and did not find any ....

So the quest is still open...

Just got an answer from Christopher Apostle from Sotheby´s Old Masters depatment.

´´

Dear Ms. T.,







I am sorry to only reply to you now, but I travel quite a bit and I have only seen that I have not answered you just now. I apologize for that.







This picture looks to be a sketch by a French artist for a larger composition. I would guess that the picture dates to about 1830/40 or so (perhaps a bit later). I cannot give you the name of an artist (make sure that there is no inscription on the reverse or any other clue), as these sketches are very hard to attribute on stylistic grounds alone. If just French School, early 19th Century, it is probably worth around $8,000 or so; while not of large value, I do think that it is something that you might investigate have restored by a qualified restorer. I would call the Ringling who may have a list of qualified professionals in your area



Mr SaintLuc was right again... and a big Thank you to Tim Williams who encourage my idea to contact Sotheby´s !!!

For the ´´septics´´ I go twice a year in NYC and will let you know more about when I go in the fall...

Your toughts are still welcome ....

This post get a lot of visitors but no comments!!!!

Marie, I respect Mr. Apostle very much, actually I meet him in person several times. Perhaps he had a bad day and just suggested you to clean and restore it.

As your photos appears my opinon is the same, but if you and Mr. Apostle mean something else you have the right to do so.

I still think the painting is newer than 19 th century and the value is low, and I still would not recommend an expensive restoring.

(doesn´´t meant to offend you)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hans_K


Marie, I respect Mr. Apostle very much, actually I meet him in person several times. Perhaps he had a bad day and just suggested you to clean and restore it.

---

Hans, Thank you for the post. I will clean it when I can. I respect also very much Mr Apostle and was happy that he confirmed that nothing was wrong but the conservation. I think also he is scare that the gresso underneath went under a very old chimical reaction....

Still no idea iconographically speaking? withearly 19th century?

quote:

---

Originally posted by luanne8437


http://www.art-conservation-sarasota.com/index.html



I live in Sarasota Florida, right by Ringling. This is the conservator the Ringling recommended to me last year, and he was fantastic! Good luck. LuAnne

---

Hello LuAnne.

Nice to hear that you live in Sarasota , I am right in Naples!!!

Thank you so much for the link I will check with them...

Marie

http://www.art-conservation-sarasota.com/index.html 



I live in Sarasota Florida, right by Ringling. This is the conservator the Ringling recommended to me last year, and he was fantastic! Good luck. LuAnne

Hello Tim ,

Thank you for your research, I did not know this Cordero version...

I found a google book with the pic of the painting.

Art in Latin America By Dawn Ades, Guy Brett, Stanton Loomis Catlin, Rosemary O´Neillth

a pic of the Juan Cordero painting which is in a museum in Mexico

it is page 35 ...

Let you judge but iconographically it is not the same style... looks very Napoleon III, the Cardinal is missing and the crowd is missing...

Plus I trust Mr Apostle opinion who after looking for 5 mn at the painting told me it is probably very early 19th ...

quote:

---

Originally posted by TLWilliams


Ok well I finally found a few spare minutes and I have found the inspiration for this painting. So I think we can safely assume the artist is likely to be Mexican.



Translating 1492: Mexico´s and Spain´s First National Celebrations of the ´´Discovery´´ of the Americas, by Oscar E. Vázquez Art Journal © 1992 College Art Association.



....In both Mexico and Spain during the 1850s - the early years of the National Academies´ state funded exhibitions - images of Columbus reflect typical European interests in often anecdotal historical details. For example, the two works Columbus at the Court of the Catholic Kings by the Mexican Juan Cordero (1824-1884) and Christopher Columbus at the Convent of La Rabida by the Spaniard Eduardo Cano (1823-1897) both won medals in their respective salons of 1850 and 1856; both inspired a series of imitators; and both championed Columbus by presenting him as the vehicle that brought Christianity to the New World and by emphasizing his enlightened foresight. Codero, despite his defiantly anti-Spanish posture within academic circles, maintained Spanish attitudes in describing New World inhabitants as cultural trophies in the service of the Catholic kings....

---

www.pietafineart.com



Old Masters, New Eyes

Fine Art Gallery, Brighton Museum & Art Gallery

11 July 2007 - 10 February 2008

http://www.virtualmuseum.info/press/103.asp 

---

Ok well I finally found a few spare minutes and I have found the inspiration for this painting. So I think we can safely assume the artist is likely to be Mexican.



Translating 1492: Mexico´s and Spain´s First National Celebrations of the ´´Discovery´´ of the Americas, by Oscar E. Vázquez Art Journal © 1992 College Art Association.



....In both Mexico and Spain during the 1850s - the early years of the National Academies´ state funded exhibitions - images of Columbus reflect typical European interests in often anecdotal historical details. For example, the two works Columbus at the Court of the Catholic Kings by the Mexican Juan Cordero (1824-1884) and Christopher Columbus at the Convent of La Rabida by the Spaniard Eduardo Cano (1823-1897) both won medals in their respective salons of 1850 and 1856; both inspired a series of imitators; and both championed Columbus by presenting him as the vehicle that brought Christianity to the New World and by emphasizing his enlightened foresight. Codero, despite his defiantly anti-Spanish posture within academic circles, maintained Spanish attitudes in describing New World inhabitants as cultural trophies in the service of the Catholic kings....

---

www.pietafineart.com



Old Masters, New Eyes

Fine Art Gallery, Brighton Museum & Art Gallery

11 July 2007 - 10 February 2008

http://www.virtualmuseum.info/press/103.asp