Dear Fausta, Saintluc, Arb:
Thank you so much for your combined efforts. First of all, apologies for cutting off the year - I noticed it only after I uploaded the photos. I will try to put up a new one with the full date.

Here is my synthesis of your comments so far:

The text is:

L’ Accademia Ligustica in dono al Prof. Cav. Santo Varni , Deliberazione 2 Agosto 1866
Il segretario Antonio Merli

In English (I placed in parantheses words that I added):

(from) The Accademia Ligustica (as a) gift to Prof. Cav. Santo Varni, Deliberations (on) 2 August 1866, (signed) Antonio Merli, Secretary

This is already huge progress for me: I was unable to read the name of the person who received the gift and now I know that it is the sculptor Santo Varni: I did not realize that Antonio Merli wrote a book on Italian drawings; I did not read the name of the Academy correctly, now I found its website:

http://www.accademialigustica.it/ 

Thank you all for your help!!

Fausta wrote that she thinks the drawing is ""authentic"" (what does that mean?); clearly the date of the gift does not say much about the date of the drawing, which to me appears earlier. I will try to get an expert on paper at the Tel Aviv museum to date the drawing - but can any of you offer a guess or opinion? or any comment on the drawing?

Thanks again,



Eytan

The sketch has a taller value of a trip to Genoa. Fundamental it is the origin: from a great Genoese collection of half Eight hundred.

The catalog of sale of the collection Santo Varni is present in the two Italian libraries (Torino e Firenze). The photo of the pages can be asked, in which the sketches are described.

If there is also this sketch, we also have the bibliography.

Fausta

The Academy Ligustica in Genoa (Ligustica means of the Liguria) offers a gift to her teacher, that is a depth expert of the Italian art and a collector of objects of art. It is not possible that the gift has not been of great value, if the managing menbris of the Academy are gathered and they have "deliberate" to offer this gift. The writing on the sketch, signed by the Secretary Antonio Merli, it certifies the passage of ownership from the Academy to the teacher. I cannot affirm that the sketch is original of Rafael, but surely it is an authentic sketch and of epoch, served as a great artist. Still today in the Academy Ligustica the Archives is entitled to the prof. Varni, that has been the most famous teacher in the Academy in the ´800.

Catalog is formed from two volumes, part I and II. But the sketches are in the part I.

A catalog of sale, at the end of the 800, in Italy it is what rare.

But I thank Arb, because I had not read well the name of Santo Varni, but I knew the meaning of the word ligustica. In reality on the sketch Atenaeum (not Accademia) is written there.

Saintluc has helped, because he read the word "deliberazione".

Fausta

It is quite extraordinary eytan, that the person mentioned on your drawing and who probably wrote it himself, is Antonio Merli, the author of this standard work on Italian Drawing from 1862: Delle Arti del Disegno, e dei principali Artisti in Liguria: Sunto Storicocronologico. This is what I read: L’Accademica Ligustica in dono al Prof.Cav. Santo Varni Del...azione 2 Agosto 1866 Il Secretário António Merli. The Cavaliere Santo Varni from 1838 to 1885 was a professor of sculpture at the Ligurian Academy in Genua. So with this text Merli seems to state that the drawing is presented to Santo Varni by the Genua Academy, of which he was the secretary. That does not imply any clue as to the age of the drawing. But if Merli gave his attention to it, you need higher expertise than this forum can give.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santo_Varni http://www.arcadja.com/auctions/it/varni_santo/prezzi-opere/146042/

Yes eytan, comment on the drawing: photo 6 shows the paper has a ribbed texture, saying that it is laid paper, which is always made from diluted linen pulp. In 1866 there was hardly any laid paper left, as the industry had diminished its use, almost entirely supplanting it by wove paper made from wood. So the drawing is not from the period when Merli was writing. And the image backs that assumption. It is not a 19th Century drawing. It is older. I say, without much knowledge of seicento and settecento art: two centuries older. This is the kind of drawing you find in Christie´s and Sotheby´s catalogues. If I am wrong, don´t send a lawyer. Oh well, you can send a lawyer if you want, but not a jewish lawyer... [:D] mazzltov on a great drawing I envy you for.

I have written, to memory, 1862, instead of 1866.

Leaves your suspended sketch to the wall. Nobody reads these notes.

In Israel the people of ´900 has brought everything that has been able, as has made the ancient people, when he has passed the desert of the Sinai.

Fausta

The catalog of the sale of the collections of Santo Varni has been made, I don´t know from who, after the death of the Artist. If this sketch is described there also, it doesn´t perhaps contain the indication of the Author. Then, the catalog won´t give perhaps us the information that we ask.

Many years ago I have frequented the courses of Librarian and Archivist near the School Vaticana. For thirty years, besides other jobs, I have made searches in archives and libraries. I have therefore a certain experience.

The search in Genoa, among the administrative documents of the Academy Ligustica, can furnish us data on the origin of the sketch. Was it purchased, and to whom belonged? Was it given instead, and from who?

The text of the deliberation doesn´t definitely loosen perhaps our doubt, because the deliberation doesn´t perhaps tell us the name of the Author.

The personal papers of the sculptor Santo Varni stay, that are to the Academy Ligustica: a great deal of documents.

Here it is the solution of the enigma. The sculptor has surely studied this sketch, he knows from what collection originates and what it contained that collection. He liked a lot this sketch and the Academy has given it to him.

From the documents, that they contain the study of on this sketch, we will know therefore who is the Author? Certainly an attribution.

This search is not therefore proper for a student, but to a professional. 10 days of search, according to my calculations.

But I go out of a dramatic experience, you know it, and I have need than at least two months of convalescence. I have resolved, with the documents, more arcane enigmas and more difficulties than this.

I love you

Fausta

in the meantime Eytan has clearly reply but I have written before reading it hello arb your peremptory affirmations ( like mine ) are just an opinion based on a low quality jpeg ... would you be so kind to let us know your perception/estimation of the dimensions based I suppose on the written text below ...30 x 40 cm or 40 x 60 cm ? the majority of the members of this forum have not your skilled eye ... pfb

hello Eytan it´s funny to see that a big scientist and physician like you is unable to read a clear written text ...even with a magnifier[:)] pfb

No pfbnantes, this coarse blue paper is as old as the drawing. We may wonder how the secretário had the nerve to write on it, but they looked at things differently. Had the sheet been mounted on 19th centure paper, the acidity and the glue would very probably have ruined it. And the dimensions are not difficult to estimate from the photographs.

of course if you compare the first jpeg of Eytan and the original of Raphael Appolo it´s exactly the same ...and the dimensions seem to be the same ...so or it´s an original drawing of the great master made for his executant painters arrived by obscure way in the hands of Eytan or an exact copy made after the original ... the Raphael´s recognized experts in the all world will decide after long very long very very long deliberations ....but it´s another story pfb

Hello arb in my opinion it´s more logical the blue margin has been put ( sticked surely ) at the time of the gift 1862 ? to present it more decoratively and it´s why the secretary has written with ink on it ...I cannot imagine that he would have written directly on the original paper part of the drawing ...and if so it´s easy to verify if some Raphael drawings have the same blue margins ..that´s explaining also the cutting of this margin to hide the provenance of the drawing pehaps after the dead of santo varni but it´s just an assomption [:)] another thing it´s not so esay to hide a drawing of such dimensions without rolling it or folding it ... pfb

Excellent reply Arb.

Just out of curiousity, the figure in the drawing appears (to me) to be holding a violin bow. Was the violin around during Raphael´s time? Of course it could be something else entirely.

quote:

---

Originally posted by arb

Hi pfb,

I cannot quite follow that assumption. If the Santo Varni provenance should be obscured, surely one would cut it off. But here it is.

It may seem logical from our perspective, but in 1862 the coarse blue paper did not contribute to the presentability. On the contrary, coloured paper (no longer textile fiber) was considered inferior and used for packaging by then. The secretary´s writing on it is not very festive or ceremonial either. Had it been meant as a visible dedication, a more calligraphic and prominent style would have been chosen. It may have been hidden behind the mat. It is the sort of annotation one hopes to find by opening a frame. Its purpose was merely a juridical one, a signed proof of Santo Varni´s legally valid ownership. And maybe for posterity, who knows...

It is very premature, but yes, other Raphael drawings are known to have been mounted to this thick foundation to strengthen them. Paper restorers nowadays are true magicians though and any national museum would have an important drawing separated from such an early undersurface.

It is a drawing. We may find it natural to hang it on a wall, earlier generations didn´t. They kept drawings in chests, cabinets, etc. Importants sheets needed to be strengthened. Raphael was not, like rembrandt or Dürer, in and out of fashion. Or like Hals, a late discovery. Raphael was always in fashion. This is a sanguine body colour drawing, an extremely vulnerable technique. Yet it appears to be very well preserved. I say we have the strong blue sheet to thank.

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Dear Eytan, out of politeness, send me a color photocopy, I desire to make a control on the place, in front of the Parmaso of Rafael.

My address is on www.paginebianche.it

Fausta

I would want to have the best possible image, on paper, to go to compare it, with the image of the Parnaso, in Vatican. I would want to make me accompany from a friend, experienced of art and of restauration of painting. This friend has discovered a cloth of Rafael, hidden under a more recent painting. Let´s see if beats her heart!

Fausta

Dear Fausta: will a printed version of the first link be satisfactory?
If not, we will have to wait - I will take the drawing out from the safe one day soon to consult an expert on paper, will try to take a better photo and mail you a copy. Please let me know.

Best to you,



Eytan

rscott:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&cp=24&gs_id=2m&xhr=t&q=raphael+apollo+parnassus&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1273&bih=901&wrapid=tljp1339593582871046&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=gJPYT5bpIuaF4gSIvsimAw 

http://objectiveart01.tripod.com/parnassus.htm 



Eytan

quote:

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Originally posted by Vietato

The attachments are broken.

Regards,
Vietato

____________________
[URL=""http://e-store.findartinfo.com/myestore.asp?m_id=270""] e-store: Vietato´s Gallery[/URL]

I am webmaster on this: [URL=""http://www.arttalk.dk/""]Art Talk - Foredrag om kunst[/URL] (in Danish - about art lectures)

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No - reduce the fontsize to 50% on your screen and you will see it.


Eytan

I received the Catalogo and my drawing is not listed. Since it is in the form of a large zip file that contains 74 separate jpeg files with two scanned pages in each, I see no way to post the whole thing.

To give you a feel of the sale and of how right arb was with his description of the attitude to drawings, I am posting two of these: look at lots 1025, 1027. I am not sure what ""quadro"" means here but 25 drawingswere placed in one lot. There are also ""cartella"" (folder) and ""album"" which I guess is a book of reproductions.
The ""Busto D´Apollo"" by Raffaelo is mentioned but it is a print (stampa), lot 1290). So my Italian improved a lot but no trace of my drawing yet. Perhaps it went to another collection, before the auction, as pointed out by pfb:
Beaucoup des dessins achetés par Varni ont été échangés ou vendus à d´autres collectionneurs passionnés, tels l´éditeur milanais Giuseppe Vallardi (1784-1861; voir L.1223), la spécialiste allemande Sybille Mertens Schaaffhausen (1797-1857), dont la collection se trouve aujourd´hui au Schloßmuseum à Weimar, ou encore le sculpteur florentin Emilio Santarelli (1801-1886), qui a offert sa collection au Gabinetto Disegni e Stampe du Musée des Offices en 1886.



Eytan

Apparently "il secretario " antonio merli was a specialist of ceramics Le ceramiche La raccolta di ceramiche venne formandosi nel corso dell’Ottocento in seguito a donazioni e lasciti di collezionisti genovesi; il più rilevante fu quello di Antonio Merli, imprenditore colto e impegnato, a lungo segretario dell’istituto, che nel 1874 legò all’Accademia molti pezzi della sua raccolta. Nel 1885 la collezione si arricchì di un piccolo nucleo di ceramiche di ispirazione neo-medioevale prodotte dalla manifattura Issel – Farina nella “bottega del vasaio” aperta durante l’Esposizione Generale Italiana del 1884 presso il Borgo Medievale del Parco del Valentino, costruito per l’occasione a Torino. Si tratta di boccali, piatti e scodelle in ceramica invetriata e graffita, eseguiti sulla base degli studi e disegni di Alfredo D’Andrade, artista e archeologo attento al recupero del medioevo. also some informations on santo varni´s collection it´s in french http://www.marquesdecollections.fr/detail.cfm/marque/11039/total/1 pfb

I have known the lawyer Umberto Osio. It was friend of my father, but more elderly than my father. It was nephew of the writer Casare Cantù. The child of Umberto osio spoke to me of this collection of ancient sketches. Umberto Osio had started to collect after The I World War: the sketches of ancient Authors cost so little and the antiquarian market consider them not very interesting... The collection Osio is today in Rome to the Calcografia (Istituto Nazionale per la Grafica). It contains above all sketches of anciant Artists of Lombardia.

In the ancient collections of sketches they were frequent the "album", composed of great piece of paper, on which the sketches and the engravings were glued, according to the taste of the collector. A great piece of paper, whith many glued sketches, you could put on frame.

The "cartella" instead it is wrap, to contain disconnected sketches.

Then "album" and "cartella" it is the container.

Fausta

"Quadro" is a sketch (or a painting) put on frame.

Fausta

hello bonjour Fausta the world of drawings/engravings collectors is fascinating ....they sometimes collect thousand of pieces ( 4.000 for Santi !) they exchange with other collectors buy and sell always attracted by the new piece and most of the time they don´t realy know what they´s got in their cardboards or portofolios ...as I have already said in another story ( Vincent ) when they have died no lawyer or auctioneer has the material possibility to check what´s the exact artistic or financial value of the succession .specially when there is a no detailed listing made by the collector ( in the most of the cases ) ..so It could be possible that a such important drawing reappers after more than a century .... pfb

Not exactly true about the printed image Eytan. Your photo is 682 x 1023 pixels (not very big, a little smaller than an A4 page), and it shows with a resolution of 72 dpi. An average printer will print 600 dpi and can print all the details we are able to see on the screen. Your photo might have been resized upon upload to Photobucket, since you feared if our browsers could handle it. Regards, Vietato ____________________ [URL="http://e-store.findartinfo.com/myestore.asp?m_id=270"] e-store: Vietato´s Gallery[/URL]
I am webmaster on this: [URL="http://www.arttalk.dk/"]Art Talk - Foredrag om kunst[/URL] (in Danish - about art lectures)

thanks eytan for keeping us informed of your interessant discovery ...so the mystery is solved and you can take back yr drawing from the safe [:)] rgds pfb