hello, my first impression is it is american with european influance. better known as hudson river school. get a subscription to ´´find art info´´ compile a list of 1st 2nd & 3rd tier hudson river artist and start searching signaures. it could just be in my head, but it seems the better hudson river artists painted some very large paintings. even if im wrong, you need to narrow it down to time, place,style, and who painted that style in that place, then. if you just search american and european 19th c. artist it will be overwhelming. if you search these hudson river artist you will find some are listed as from countries other than america that is because some just were not born here but the paintings are considered american if painted here after there move here. so in my opinion that is probably a good starting point, but stay tuned, im shure someone else will have a opinion also.

Thanks! That is really good advice.



Although, I´ve had an ´expert´ say "it´s not Hudson River School" but I can´t tell the difference from that to Barbizon style. I really, really want it to be an American painting since it would be worth a lot more : )

I would send both photos to the Dorotheum in Vienna. Such a Gordian knot of initials somehow points at the Danube monarchy. You may remember Mozart was a mason, too. And mixed cattle roaming free always was a favorite theme of Hungarians. The cows are practically copied from 17th C Nicolas Berchem, but the loving mare and fole are post-1800 Romantic icons.



Is it possible, as kmurban warns, that in the USA that some lodge may claim ownership without proof? I mean, freemasons do have their internal laws, but surely they are not above national jurisdiction? If jbartlet has a painting in his possession is he not assumed to have acquired it bona fide and to be the rightful owner unless proven otherwise? The only examples I know of the latter here in Holland are the ones where nazi confiscation was concerned. And even in those cases only where the accused (public collections) pleaded guilty.

Very Nice painting.

Not to be joking or anything ..... I think it is American by the very fact,that I don´t think the European artists would put the horses with the cows!! at least not roaming freely like that (the European horses would be thoroughbreds in there own fenced area). Those more familar with horse and cow paintings may want to add something here (as Arb already has) -- is there a general differrence in subject composition between older American and European cow/horse paintings?? Hmmm! The Fisherman

You often see cows and horses together on Danish paintings. There might even be some sheep in between. Not that we don´t have horses-in-a-field and cows-in-a-field paintings, they are plenty.



I guess some prefer to have the sole atmosphere of one animal present while others would like to see the rural life in its abundance.



Regards,

Vietato



____________________

[URL="http://e-store.findartinfo.com/myestore.asp?m_id=270"] e-store: Vietato´s Gallery[/URL]

Wow! Great discussion guys. Thank you.



As for ownership - it was purchased from the owner of the house and I assume there´s proof of that purchase somewhere, but it was in the 70´s and a couple generations above me.



I will try contacting the Europeans mentioned by Arb

I have contacted local Mason lodges and also the 19thC. dept at the Dorotheum.



Are there any other good European sources? I tried the Tate a while ago (3-4 different people) and never got a response, I must have been filtered as junk mail or something.

I do apologize for the photo quality. When I took it I was thinking that just the image and the monogram would be enough to find the answers with a few emails... I´ve been at this for over a year now.



Here are some close-ups:

Good for you, jbartlet! If the Dorotheum link leads to a solution of this intriguing puzzle, could I have a slice of that top pie in front of te painting?

Several members have shown their interest in this painting and among the most competent but I am surprised that nobody ask for better photos of the painting. The single one here is blurred and absolutly insufficient to get a serious opinion about the style. The figures for example would give more sure idea of the style. I don´t agrea with fisherman about the american origin of this painting and not for this american possibility which could be the right one but for the reason fisherman gives because we just have to look seriously at the work of a John Frederick Herring for example to verify that cattle and horses are everywhere sometimes together.

It´s a shame there is no rear view. I´d love to see the stretcher bars and the canvas itself.

---

-Chad W.

http://cwysart.blogspot.com 

http://chadwys.com 

Any chance it could be Julius Ibbeston or George Vicat Cole?

I also find that random auction link with the monogram description very interesting. Although the painting doesn´t look anything of the style, I emailed the auctioneer a photo of my monogram anyway.

Attached are three more close-ups. There´s another person, the blue horse, and the house.



The second person looks very European to me.

Ref. jbartlet above; Vicat Cole´s monogram is different to the one on your painting, you can see an example here via the zoom option:



http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=5161200 



I definitely also think this is an American painting, not European. Any photos of the back of the painting?



Regards,

ZenZen

The house is distinctively American/colonial in style (we don´t have verandahs like that in Europe). There also appears to be interesting allegory emerging: the hard working ´European´ vs the lazy ´African´.



I´m absolutely convinced this is an American painting.

---

www.pietafineart.com



Old Masters, New Eyes

Fine Art Gallery, Brighton Museum & Art Gallery

11 July 2007 - 10 February 2008

http://www.virtualmuseum.info/press/103.asp 

Again - sorry - no pics of the back of the painting.

I got a response from the Dorotheum:



"I really had a close look at the attached painting but I’m really sorry I have no idea – I have never seen this monogram. For me the painting is rather German than Dutch."



Maybe a German-American? or German artist who traveled?

thank you Sagon - those are all becoming common thoughts. When I started this I thought that monogram would be recognized by someone, somewhere. but alas! nothing. forever a mystery I guess!

On the lighter side. Since it seems to be a Masonry related painting, he could become a free mason and gain access to information that might shed some light on the painting.

My father is deeply involved with the Freemasons. Alas, I know nothing about Freemasons and he knows nothing about art. I will show him the signature at any rate and see if it strikes a bell. He has countless "symbols" and "codes" books having to do with the Masons. Wouldn´t it be divine if the artist is common knowledge within such circles? -------------------------------------- -Chad W. [url]http://chadwys.com[/url]

I just want to assure you that although there has been no follow ups lately members like saintluc, wasbach, kungzi, chad etc don´t forget a painting. Many posts have been solved years later, much research has to do with chance, I have tirelessly researched paintings before and found nothing only to walk into a gallery or auction or flick through a book years later and bang. This is a good picture and this may sound controversial, but 18th and 19th century American painters (in my opinion) wern´t that ´good´ in general - by that I mean they lacked a lot of formal training compared to European counterparts, but they are held in high esteem in the States and rightly so because they documented the social history of an emerging nation. You find the same with other colonial countries; Australia, NZ, SA etc. I rate this as a relatively important work and I´m sure someone will stumble upon the artist soon. -------------------------------------------- www.pietafineart.com Old Masters, New Eyes Fine Art Gallery, Brighton Museum & Art Gallery 11 July 2007 - 10 February 2008 http://www.virtualmuseum.info/press/103.asp

That´s somewhat comforting! I know it can sometimes be a long and tedious road. As for the Mason connection. As part of my shotgunning I sent stuff out to local branches and also tried some generic ´freemason art´ related things. No hits anywhere though. I´ll definitely keep trying! Thanks for the help.

Have you tried this resource? http://www.nationalheritagemuseum.org/ "The National Heritage Museum in Lexington, MA is an American history museum founded and supported by 32° Scottish Rite Freemasons in the Northern Masonic Jurisdiction."

This makes interesting reading. nyart http://books.google.com/books?id=LLL28xCRM00C&pg=PA331&lpg=PA331&dq=William+Sidney+Mount+freemason&source=bl&ots=9uepZ0spk6&sig=T9EOFKvjXtfgji7WI2PDnojd3y4&hl=en&ei=UOgKTZ2cG8H98AbOv

I don´t know if it is helpful or not, but here is some basic information my father sent to me. image attached -------------------------------------- -Chad W. [url]http://chadwys.com[/url]

After reading all of the threads I am surprised that no one has brought up David Johnson as the artist. Johnson has a somewhat similar monogram that he used on his paintings - especially the D with an intertwining J Tom Slusar