I think of a représentation of Athena or Minerva the mythologial goddess...

The profile, the position of the head, of the neck and of the helmet, the hairs, and up to the little hook of the tuft behind are copied after the Glory by Prevost in the frontispiece with the portrait of Cochin he have done for the catalogue of the engravings of this artist published by Jombert in 1770.

Furthermore, the paper is of the type ´´Ingres´´ and from the second half of the 19th century for the best. Then the dove (the only original part in this drawing) is a symbol of peace and inconsistent with a representation of Minerva.

hello Saintluc

thanks for yr help , concerning the paper after checking the watermark it´s definitely a vergé paper with a bunch of grapes .. they are a few grapes not visible on jpeg due to the marie louise ...you can only see a kind of cross... does it indicate the period of execution ? second half of XIX cent certainly not for the paper... could be for the drawing but I think it´s older

rgds

Saintluc

´´ are copied after the Glory by Prevost in the frontispiece with the portrait of Cochin he have done for the catalogue of the engravings of this artist published by Jombert in 1770´´ very impressive reply ... but not relevant for me ... I can show you tens pictures or paintings ( part of ) of women wearing the same helmet in the same position

late XIX cent copy of a frontispiece published in 1770 ... !!!! why not 1920-1930 ?

rgds

quote:

---

Originally posted by pfbnantes


Saintluc

´´ ... I can show you tens pictures or paintings ( part of ) of women wearing the same helmet in the same position...

---

An answer exactly in pfbnantes style. Hurry up guy! Show us your ten paintings.

Bravo saintluc

In France we use to call this kind of answer ´´ botter en touche ´´ ´´Divert a conversation´´ in english or ´´Kick in touch the ball´´...you don´t reply seriously and seems to play for the gallery on a stage where you are of course the best ... to affirm that this drawing is at the best from the second half of XIX cent and a copy is or a joke for yr personnal satisfaction or a total failure to recognize

no time to loose to play yr malicious game

rgds

´´ An answer exactly in pfbnantes style. Hurry up guy! Show us your ten paintings ´´

Just for fun after 10 minutes checking today on google I have found 4 pictures of paintings/drawings of women wearing a helmet in the style of my drawing ..certainly not relevant :-))

rgds

Hello my dear contradictor

I don´t know where you have found yr gold medal member but certainly not in the class and respect circle . To attack personally and generally someone in reply to a precise enquiry concerning a drawing ... which you have said to be ´´ at the best of the second half of XIXcent and a copy of an obscure fontispiece ´´ shows to me yr incompetence in this precise enquiry .... far away from me to judge yr general expertise on comparing this forum images and yr brain imagery ( certainly due to hours searching on web ) and help on this forum ....

for yr info I am not collecting shells which is a respectable hobby but semi precious small pebbles from the ocean which have made the reputation of the place at the end of XIX cent where they used to polish them and make some jewellery with ...the rest is none of yr concern

hello jess

thanks for replying but unfortunately yr reply is of no relevant value

according to the great gold master judgment :

´´Then the dove (the only original part in this drawing) is a symbol of peace and inconsistent with a representation of Minerva´´

for infomation Minerva and Athena are the same

I am french and don´t know the other guy

i appologize for greenpeace rainbow´s warrior

:-))

rgds

hello wasbach



´´He didn’t “find” his “gold medal”, pfb, he helped a countless times.

So please treat him with all due respect´´

right you are and in my previous post I have said

´´ far away from me to judge yr general expertise on comparing this forum images and yr brain imagery ( certainly due to hours searching on web ) and help on this forum ....´´

but the personal attacks are not of my concern

regards

I have difficulties to be amused by this as a “heated discussion” between two “French guys”.

Saintluc is our most valuable member. He solved numerous mysteries. We absolutely need him.

He didn’t “find” his “gold medal”, pfb, he helped a countless times.

So please treat him with all due respect.

Regards

Wasbach

quote:

---

Originally posted by pfbnantes


Saintluc

´´ are copied after the Glory by Prevost in the frontispiece with the portrait of Cochin he have done for the catalogue of the engravings of this artist published by Jombert in 1770´´ very impressive reply ... but not relevant for me ... I can show you tens pictures or paintings ( part of ) of women wearing the same helmet in the same position

late XIX cent copy of a frontispiece published in 1770 ... !!!! why not 1920-1930 ?

rgds

---

It´s funny those guys who ask for advices and when you see that their treasure has no quality, no depth, no presence, they pee on the ground and roll over. You know what? At your place, I would let adult persons attending to art and would take advantage of my geographical and intellectual situation for collecting shells.

´´Sometimes Minerva´s helmet was covered at the top with a figure of a cock, a bird which, on account of his great courage is properly sacred to the goddess of war. Some of her statues represented her helmet with a sphinx in the middle, supported on either side, by grifffins.´´



From the Classical Dictionary by John Lempriere, 1812



http://www.rijksmuseum.nl/aria/aria_assets/BK-1959-2?lang=en 

quote:

________________________________________

Originally posted by pfbnantes



Hello bonjour

Has somebody an idea of the artist . Very old charcoal drawing on vergé paper with a water mark ( see jpeg4 in tranparency ) representing a woman with a helmet and a bird ( dove ? ) on it . Could be a symbol of the peace . I think of a néo classical french artist of XVIII cent like David or Delacroix but it could be older or from a different country . could be also a study for a painting it reminds me something ... surely not Picasso ! dimensions 23,5 x 30 cm .

thanks in advance for yr help

regards

________________________________________







I have always associated the Goddess Athena + an owl. And that´s the way I like to see her..... but....

´´Athena (also known as Pallas Athene and the Roman goddess Minerva) is often represented by symbols associated with her wisdom and leadership. It isn´t surprizing that many of the ikons representing civilization are derived from the ancient goddess symbols of Athena.´´

And some of the animals could well be....Owl (wisdom), dove (victory), etc...



http://www.goddessgift.com/goddess-myths/goddess_symbols_Athena.htm 



Ps. Are you both French? Saintluc and pfbnantes?

I love it when you French guys have a heated discussion.

How French is that? I love France. Vive la France!!!!









________________________________________

That´s OK, pfbnantes; greenpeace rainbow´s was a decision that I am sure It was taken by a few members of that old government. How is it possible to blame a whole people? No way; let´s blame just a few not so nice politicians. I also do know that the French understand humour. They´ve got their own.

And never mind, it was not you who started a war and lost twice.

Bless you!!!!



http://forum.findartinfo.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5912 

For everyone who has a problem of identification of ancient gods and goddesses in connexion with art plse check :

http://www.arthistoryarchive.com/arthistory/greekroman/Achilles-to-Zephyr-List-of-Greek-Roman-Art.html 

rgds

Hello bonjour

thanks for replying

some more jpegs of the vergé paper by transparency through my sunny window and a more close view of the bird

rgds

She should not have in head a dove of the peace, but an owl. In Romanesco dialect: ´´ciovetta´´. Symbol of wisdom. The sketch, whoever has done it, it is fragile, deprived of strength and of depth. The quality is more main point than the epoch.



http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civetta_di_Minerva 



Fausta

Hello bonjour

for saintluc





I have found this item on ebay.fr strange resamblance isn´it ?

http://cgi.ebay.fr/Dessin-Ancien-XVIIIe-Cartouche-FRANCOIS-BOUCHER-Casque-Minerve-Portrait-Femme-/120861433747?pt=FR_JG_Art_Art_Dessins&hash=item1c23e71f93 ....

rgds

pfb

http://catalogue.drouot.com/ref-drouot/lot-ventes-aux-encheres-drouot.jsp?id=510391rgdspfb 

Wao! Happy for you guy. [V]I was wrong and I hope that the Admin will allow you to you to put a twinkling title for all our friends.

Now, what else?

1) You had bought a bad reverse copy after Boucher in place of a copy after Prevost, that already makes your art knowledge twinkles.

2) You have not yet started your collection of shells.

Pistols at dawn?

Hello bonjour



saintluc : Bravo pirouette of the artist clap clap... the show must go on

dicrediting somebody is allowed by your holy status [?]...for once you don´t use some bad tricky webpage setting to clown around [:)] ...I know sometimes it´s hard to be always at the top ....



Reverse copy drawing of course but of XVIII cent drawing by Boucher

rgds

pfb

quote:

---

Originally posted by pfbnantes




..........................................................................

...I know sometimes it´s hard to be always at the top ....

---

You especially know each day how much harder it is to be always at the bottom[B)]

No. Bénézits! [;)]

Twenty feet. Blindfolded.

If there is no decision: Brushs.

Regards

Wasbach

Fantastic! Two French cocks have put the helmet of the French Minerva and they fight in English language. Theater of the absurdity. Entrez! The show is free.



Fausta

If there is no decision: Brushs



Brushs with the famous paintings Saint Luc

http://www.peintures-saint-luc.com/ 

´´ vive la peinture ´´

rgds

pfb

the only fight that I can tolerate is the one against the arrogance and the sufficiency of some pseudo-experts who think that their words are like gospel truth and never accept the contradiction . The world of art and specially in France is full of these buffoons who want to rule the market and take the liberty to affirm and write such judgment : ´´ It´s funny those guys who ask for advices and when you see that their treasure has no quality, no depth, no presence, they pee on the ground and roll over. You know what? At your place, I would let adult persons attending to art ´´

curtain

quote:

---

Originally posted by pfbnantes


.........the only fight that I can tolerate is the one against the arrogance and the sufficiency of some pseudo-experts who think that their words are .......

---

Only the words ´´I can tolerate´´ are delightful and show your schizophrenia. Let´s look at YOUR competence as expert :

quote:

---

Originally posted by pfbnantes


....expression ´´ tiens fumes c´est du belge ´´ coming from the time when smuggling tobacco and cigarettes coming from belgium was considered as a symbol of quality ...

---

One of the most vulgar french expressions! When there was no reason to write it for the understanding of the post, a coward way to say F..you! to wasbach, that the expression means the most often.

Just add your insulting judgment about americans and american art (apparently erased by the admin because in spam) and the magnificent sentences you have just done about the ´´camembert´´

http://forum.findartinfo.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9296 

Well. No one would envy such competences and we have only to search in your old interventions to find dozens of these gems.

I do think that F..vindictive youngters like you desserve the idea our american friends have about frenchies and the only explanation is that YOU must really have the beret down the eyebrows and bread under the armpit!

hello bonjour

In fact I would have prefered that members break in on this topic :

http://forum.findartinfo.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9181  but hey seem more interested by playing about

[:D]

rgds

pfb

I was just wondering about the lack of a slight touch of MimiPalintty´s lecture in this thread.

Unbelievably entertaining of you all Europeans! I´ve thoroughly enjoyed the banter and come away with a new understanding of the manners of most men around the world now, excluding Wasbash of course, a gentleman without question!



Please, remain in your full color; as Americans might call it when all rules of ediquite have gone over your shrinking forebrains; as your ´egos´ have taken control of your mouths! And they say women are can´t be quiet!



So, thanks for the laughs, out loud, great fun guys! Most sincerely, MimiPatty (I can see I´ve been away too long!) Peace Always!