Hey Guys

It´s a drawing pen & brown ink or it´s an etching a la sanguine?

If is a drawing probably it´s from The Genoese school ( Ligurian School Italy) 17th century from the collection of Father Sebastiano Resta? (Sagredo Borghese Album)

This drawing probably is part of the so-called Borghese Sagredo-album, an album of drawings gathered and dismantled by a collector of 18th century. I don´t know if it could be attribuited to the Castiglione called il Grechetto or the son to be found out...Cheers

Carisi

quote:

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Originally posted by bohdan9@tlen.pl


Paper 145x230 mm (consist of four papers glued).

Watermark (crown, circle, letter "V")


Maybe someone knows the watermark?

What do You think about it ?

Thank You in advance for Your comments.

Bohdan.

Attached Photos: Front, UVfront, Watermark.

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Hi Wolkenblau

Yes it´s me...

Cheers

quote:

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Originally posted by wolkenblau


Hello Carisi,

is this you?:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200668517586 

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Hi Bohdan

Nothing to do with my personal marketing...It was just a suggestion that perhaps it could help you to find out from where this drawing come from though in this Sagredo Borghese album was plenty of drawings like yours and mine... That´all...

The Marketing for this type of art drawings in my possession it´s Christie´s who it does.. Certainly not Ebay ....Or an art forum....

Cheers

quote:

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Originally posted by bohdan9@tlen.pl


Hi Carisi!

I think that it is your personal marketing and has no connection with my red chalk drawing .Am I wrong? Good luck.

Cheers!

Bohdan

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Hi Carisi!

I think that it is your personal marketing and has no connection with my red chalk drawing .Am I wrong? Good luck.

Cheers!

Bohdan

Carisi sorry. I am an amateur and poorly know English.

Thank you.

Bohdan

http://www.sothebys.com/fr/catalogues/ecatalogue.html/2010/master-drawings-from-a-distinguished-european-collection-l10042#/r=/fr/ecat.fhtml.L10042.html+r.m=/fr/ecat.lot.L10042.html/13/+r.o=/fr/ecat.notes.L10042.html/13/ 

Hi idailey,


!950 ?????

Regards.

I think that judging from the watermark, this could be spot on for Central Italy Circa 1950 and that would be a fair judgement considering how specific with the style it is.

I have to agree, it was best to have been discovered still because the artistry is such magnificent display of class. It is just great how things are unraveled this way.

Hi Wolkenblau!

I tried to send to an e-mail you via findartinfo but it´s been returned. Maybe you have some outdated mail at the Forum?



or maybe you don´t want to receive anything? (of course I accept your decisions in this matter).

I don´t know the rules of this forum. It seems to me that ADMIN may not tolerate contacts of the members outside the Forum.

I understand this. If we contact each other directly, this Forum will become less attractive.

(Halo, ADMIN: If you read this, please let me know about that. Thanks in advance!

This is important for the transmission of images larger than 150 KB)

Hello Fausta!

Thank you for your comments. You are nice, objective and you have a lot of empathy. It´s a little hard for me to understand you precisely (quite often the other as well) because I translate you letters by myself due to financial reasons and I only use the service of an interpreter when I´m writing to you. As for no, I can only say that unfortunately I don´t have such nice friends in Vatican as you do [:)]


Dear Wolkenblau!

Your comments are very interesting. Writing the letter which you´re commenting I meant the opinion of Saintluc:

" More than the Belvedere torso- That is already finely observed- it is more a study after an unknow (for me) version of the Herakles Epitrapesios by Lysippus."

"..unknow (for me) version.." hm..

Because in the drawings of torsos I haven´t seen any "special" version, I thought, perhaps wrongly, that it refers to the figure on the left which I called "pieta"..


My belief was even stronger because of the left leg sharply cut off, just like it appears in the sculpture of Hercakles Epitrapezios and the left hand directed upward as if it was still holding a small column.

I had some little problems with the "hand under his armpit" but my imagination is reliable.[8D]

Have you ever been helping a colleague who happened to drink few sips of wine than he really sould? If so than it´s your hand on that drawing [;)]

If an artist got the sitting Heracles "drunk" and "laid him on his back", he might have also had some mercy to upheld him under his arm??

If I just made you laugh it´s because I like you.



Saintluc could explain this but to my misfortune I´ve unwittingly offended him with something and we have no influence at that.

I admire his knowledge and I respect the freedom of ignoring just anyone he wants to ignore. He´s like "Rome" (Roma locuta, causa finita).

In some way I´m not surprised. My crazy ideas may upset indeed.

I think that the drawings of torsos and Heracles (Pieta?) could be considered separately. Eventually it´s better to have two interesting drawings than one. Then we will need the Fausta´s information about the Vatican specialists.

(Maybe you would like to have one? Which one?)[;)]

Before writing the letter that you´re commenting, for the long time I was watching the drawing of Pieta from Louvre, my drawing and the Laocoon´s Group.

My thoughts also went the clue which you´re pointing but I´ve actually seen more suffering and death seen in Piets and Laocoon than in my invalid without leg.

Either way some - rather not accidental - connections between study of Pieta from Louvre and my drawing of a figure on the left ...are INTRIGUING.

Thank you and all who are honored this topic with their attention.

Regards

Bohdan

Thanks of the polite words. I have the same difficulty with the English language, and I use the automatic translator www.reverso.com

Many years ago I frequented the course of Paleografia and Diplomatica, at the Vatican Archivio. I don´t have today contacts, but I know that, to the Library Vaticana, works Mrs Iatta, married Midulla, that is an experienced on the study and the maintenance of the manuscripts.

The sketch is constituted by two parts. The part of right, drift from the famous sculpture Eracle of Lisippo.

The part of left, drift from the Pity Rondanini of Michelangelo, that was a lot of times modified by the sculptor and ever ended.

The hand under the armpit is that of the Virgo Maria, that stops the body of Christ. There are a lot of Pities (oil on canvas), of the end of the 16 century, that they show the figure of Christ with the body in erect position, turned toward the spectator, and sustained by the hand of the Virgo under the armpit.

I would not give a lot of importance to the leg cut of sketch of left, because what it cares is the position of the body. The reclined head is michelangiolesca.

My hypothesis is that the sketch of right has been done taking to model the body of Christ of the sketch of left, but that in the same sketch it is visible the derivation from the sculpture of Lisippo.

Not all the sketches prepare a following work (sculpture, painting etc.) they are often simple studies, exercises.

Fausta

http://www.ippolitonievo.info 

web master

Hi Bohdan,

We made a test and could send email easily. Please ask her/him to check mailbox and try again.

Thanks!

Admin

Originally posted by bohdan9@tlen.pl


Hi Wolkenblau!



I tried to send to an e-mail you via findartinfo but it´s been returned. Maybe you have some outdated mail at the Forum?

or maybe you don´t want to receive anything? (of course I accept your decisions in this matter).

I don´t know the rules of this forum. It seems to me that ADMIN may not tolerate contacts of the members outside the Forum.

I understand this. If we contact each other directly, this Forum will become less attractive.

(Halo, ADMIN: If you read this, please let me know about that. Thanks in advance!

Hey Admin,

Unfortunately, subsequent attempts of sending an e-mail via findartinfo have failed.

The e-mails keep on coming back to me with this message:

"This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.

Delivery to the following recipients failed."

After this communique there´s a direct e-mail address "Wolkenblau".

Does using it require your approval? I´ve had some unpleasant experiences.

Thanks in advance for clarifying it.



Halo Fausta, Carisi, Idailey !

Thank you very much for the interesting information. I would be very grateful for any links that would help me to better understand your suggestions.

Kind regards

Dear wolkenblau

Help me explain the case of paper thickness (0.12 mm)??

Thank you very much.

Bohdan.

Hello wolkenblau,

I do not know this site.

Thank you for your help and I wish you a nice day.

Bohdan

P.s. Mail via findartinfo? : [V]

Interesting work related to the subject of attribution old drawings:

http://karlzipser.com/michelangelo1-short.html 

Regards.

Hello Bohdan,

I have had no luck so far with the association of paper-historians. I only have a phonenumber but they seem not to answer any calls directly but call back. However I was not at home everytime they called (twice).

Have you seen this?

www.paperhistory.org



This page shows international contact data, so next week I´ll try the Swiss museum.

P.S. I have received no e-mails via findartinfo, neither from you nor from administration.

On the iconografia of the Pity, I have found this painting of Antonio Viviani, a "seguace" of Federico Barocci, that the Pity of Michelangelo, that is in Florence, takes back. To notice the hand under the armpit.

http://fe.fondazionezeri.unibo.it/catalogo/scheda.jsp?decorator=layout&apply=true&tipo_scheda=OA&id=33876&titolo=Viviani+Antonio%0a%09%09%09+ (Sordo)%0a%09%09%09+%2c+Piet%e0

Fausta

http://www.ippolitonievo.info 

web master

thank you very much Fausta

Have a nice day.[:)]
Bohdan.

Hi Bohdan,

We made a test by sending you an email from username "myartlove" with title "Sent from Ask about Art by myartlove" which you already replied on Wednesday 23 Nov, 11. Therefore, you can communicate directly with each other without any problem. Please check with your friend about his email address.



Thanks!

Admin

quote:

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Originally posted by bohdan9@tlen.pl




Hey Admin,

Unfortunately, subsequent attempts of sending an e-mail via findartinfo have failed.

The e-mails keep on coming back to me with this message:

"This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.

Delivery to the following recipients failed."

After this communique there´s a direct e-mail address "Wolkenblau".

Does using it require your approval? I´ve had some unpleasant experiences.

Thanks in advance for clarifying it.

Bohdan.

---

Thank you Admin[:)]

Regards.
Bohdan

My dear!



I was going to summarize our discussion but I came to the conclusion that I don´t have proper competences to do that.

Thanks to everyone who gave their time and posted their comments. I greet everybody in the order in which they took a part if the discussion: Wolkenblau, Tl Williams, Saintluc, ZenZen, Ercole (Fausta), Carisi, Idailey.

If "I have enough of life" to keep on trying, I will – but it´s a "Sisyphean task" for the amateur.

Nice and people-friendly Fausta (if I understand her well) suggests not to pay attention to the fact that the leg of lying figure (left side of a drawing) is "cut off". I don´t agree with that point of view.

The drawing clearly suggests that it was a sculpture that was drawn - a sculpture that used to exist or maybe still exists somewhere.

In my opinion that´s an important clue. I would be very grateful to Santluc If he would write whether his very interesting hypothesis about Heracles relates only to torsos (as it was understood by Wolkenblau) or also to the figure on the left side as it´s stated by me.

My dream is to get some competent and credible hypotheses which would let me sell the drawing well.

Maybe I shouldn´t be writing it – but it is obvious that I would share the obtained sale amount with the author (or authors) of such elaboration.

I wish you all good health and success at your work.

Bohdan.

I have found a Pity of Giovanni Francesco Lampugnani. Very interesting.

http://www.artvalue.com/auctionresult--lampugnani-giovanni-francesco-deposizione-di-cristo-nel-sepo-1924296.htm 

Fausta