eytan
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12 years ago
looks to me like your´s is a copy: the one from the website has more depth, softer lighting, yours is more flat and the shadow of the branch that goes across the top is missing.







Eytan
ssteal
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12 years ago
Do you not find it strange for someone to replicate mearly stroke by stroke a painting by an unknown artist?
mcelveen
12 years ago
Hello SSTEAL,



I confess I am a paintings conservator who has worked on Prentice. I´m not clear which is the one you own, but the one on the left should not be entirely discounted if it has a dulling surface grime and no saturating varnish. Try to compare the handwriting of the inscription with signature samples if possible. Many artists of varying abilities copied popular paintings. The inscription, stretcher, canvas, tacks are other things to compare and consider.



mcelveen
mcelveen
12 years ago
Hello ssteal,



There are many homages, copies of popular paintings, I see it all the time. Artists also made duplicates of their own popular works. Comparing ´´apples and oranges´´...why should he not paint oranges? Never say never about what an artist may paint. The key is the inscription, if a copyist is acknowledging the original source, where is the original? Or someone at one time was trying to be deceptive, or taking a guess? Also, an artist´s skill evolves over time, their best examples are not the images most readably accessible. As far as experts are concerned, I´ve seen the authentic signature emerge from beneath deceptive overpaint of paintings catalogued by experts who trusted the spurious signature. But experts are the great allies of anyone attempting to authenticate works, many factors are to be considered. Investigate the inscription, the frame, canvas, tacks.



Have fun,

mcelveen
mcelveen
12 years ago
Hello ssteal,



Prentice was a self-taught American artist who wasn´t appreciated until the 1970´s, he is known to have lived in Buffalo, N.Y. You´ve checked him out on Wikipedia? Your hope is in the inscription. It is difficult for experts to have thorough knowledge of self-taught artists. Be patient and keep trying. Have precise photos taken of the inscription.



mcelveen
ssteal
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12 years ago
@Wasbach. I own the painting in the attachments. I thought it was the same painting as the one in the link, but eytan pointed out it is missing some shawdowing, otherwise it is nearly the exact same painting. Could mine be a study? They are too similar not to be painted by the same hand. The other question is why would someone make a copy of a painting by an unknown artist? Maybe mine is the original and the one from palettemuseum is the copy. They are trying to determine from whence the painting originated and who the artist was. There is no way to contact palettemuseum from checking their site. There is a sign-in, but no way to get logged in as a member to sign-in. I have more photos I can post if needed. @Vietato - Thank you for posting the other oranges painting for sale. The palettemuseum site said it was from Essex, CT. I was told it is not a Prentice by a knowledeable gallery owner who liquidated 150 of his works in the 1980´s and continues to sell them at auction. The mystery continues to be - who painted my painting and the one on palettemuseum. Does anyone agree they are painted by the same person? Even without the knowledge of the artist, what is your opinion of the painting?
ssteal
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12 years ago
@Mcelveen -I own the painting that is shown in the attachments on the first post. It isn´t hand signed on the front by anyone (unless it it is hidden under the frame. The back of the painting, as I first mentioned has Prentice´s name written in pencil, unreadable 2 words, then Buffalo, NY, Jun 9, 1889. I know Prentice was not known for painting oranges. I have not seen a single work by him of oranges. I would simply like to know who painted my painting, if it is possible to determine that information without a signature.

ssteal
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12 years ago
Thanks Mcelveen. I doubt there´s anyone where I live that can authenticate this painting. It certainly is an old canvas and nails or tacks that attach it to the stretcher. I have written to an expert, but so far, have not received a response. I´m turning to this Forum because there are so many knowledgeable members from all over the world. I think this should be the best source to obtain an answer or at least point me in the right direction.
ssteal
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12 years ago
Dear Mcelveen:



The person I purchased this from mentioned it was once in a museum in Buffalo. I have attempted to contact them to find out which museum, but to no avail. When I google museums in Buffalo, NY, I find museums affiliated with colleges or galleries only. I know Prentice was from NY, lived in the Adirondacs and also lived in Brooklyn. I guess my next move is to contact these museums in Buffalo. Thanks for the encouragement.
wasbach
12 years ago
quote:
I own the painting of the oranges in the link below.
Sorry, I don´t understand. You own a painting with a very similar subject like the two ones in the link. ?

Regards

Wasbach
Vietato
12 years ago
Who told you it´s not a Prentice?

Of course it´s not an original Prentice (as it is not of his quality), but it could be a copy of one of his paintings, as could the other two shown at Palettemuseum.



The one from Connecticut is for sale here:

http://fineart.oneofakindantiques.com/6954__early_american_primitive_folk_art_painting_on_canvas_4.htm 



(where it does not say it´s from Connecticut, by the way)



It could seem it was a widely known picture at the time (turn of the 19th century), since it was painted in both Wales and the USA. Maybe issued as a chromolithograph.



I´m attaching the photos from Palettemusuem in the proper dimensions - they appear squeezed on their site.



Regards,

Vietato



PS: Wasbach, I´m sure ssteal owns the painting shown in the attachments. They also have ´´links´´, which is coded text leading someplace else, in this case to the attached pictures.

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mcelveen
12 years ago
Hello ssteal,



There is an Art Conservation Department at Buffalo State College, perhaps they could advise you. artcon@buffalostate.edu



mcelveen
ssteal
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12 years ago
Thanks Mcelveen. I think that will be my first contact. Will let you know if they can tell me anything.
ssteal
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12 years ago
I found out this was given to the auction house by a gallery in Buffalo, NY. I have sent images to the gallery and am waiting to hear back from them. They did mention they would sell pieces to auction houses that were left for consignment and never picked up. Hopefully, more news to come soon.
ssteal
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12 years ago
The gallery in Buffalo, NY has no recollection of the painting.



Does anyone know how to register for www.palettemuseum.com? I can only find the log-in page, but you must establish an I.D. and password. I cannot locate the page to register for this site. Hope someone can assist.
ssteal
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12 years ago
Thanks so much Vietato. I will check that link out.
ssteal
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12 years ago
Unfortunately, I cannot connect to either of those links. I did find a F.B. page for the Academy of Decorative Painting and left a post on there. I´ll see what comes of it.
ssteal
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12 years ago
Removed the painting from the frame - no signature anywhere on the front. The mystery continues. @Mcelveen, I did write to your link, but have not heard back from them and may not if they don´t know anything.
Vietato
12 years ago
Palettemuseum.com is made as a blog, and I think the log-in is for the owner only - but I´m not sure if there is a general Word Press membership that would allow entrance.



No email contact is mentioned either - not very clever, when they ask for input from the world!



But here is another page associated with it - and here it seems you can register:

http://academiesofdecorativepainting.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=30 



http://academiesofdecorativepainting.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=129:the-palette-museum-project 



Regards,

Vietato



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bluemlein
12 years ago
the person associated with the palettemuseum magazine is francois rouillay: f.rouillay@plateforme-territoire.fr he may shed light on how that original post of theirs was arrived at



http://www.flickr.com/photos/palettemuseum/5696262905/in/photostream  crying out for info



http://academiesofdecorativepainting.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=63&Itemid=61  lots of info
mcelveen
12 years ago
Seek a conservator recommended by your closest art museum, have the inscription on the reverse examined. The conservator can give you an opinion about the age and authenticity of the inscription, don´t clean or rub that area. There probably will be a fee. Although the painting is lacking some qualities of Prentice´s well known works, the inscription should be investigated. Can you divulge who, or what kind of professional told you it wasn´t Prentice?



mcelveen
ssteal
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12 years ago
Thank you so much bluemlein!

Vietato
12 years ago
quote:
Originally posted by ssteal

I was told it is not a Prentice by a knowledeable gallery owner who liquidated 150 of his works in the 1980´s and continues to sell them at auction.






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ssteal
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12 years ago
I have written to everyone who was recommended by members of the Forum. Not one person has responded to my e-mails. Anyone have any other ideas?
mcelveen
12 years ago
here is a signature to compare to your inscription, I see some similarities, don´t give up, keep trying to contact a conservator near you or in Buffalo.
mcelveen
12 years ago
sorry, I´ll try to send photos.



mcelveen
ssteal
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12 years ago
Mcelveen,



I found an art conservator that worked in the Buffalo area for a time. I wrote to him and sent him photos. Waiting to hear back regarding his fee schedule. Thanks for the info once again.

ssteal
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12 years ago
Thanks for the images. I am no expert on Levi Wells Prentice, but I have

seen quite a few of his paintings over the years. While this is a nice,

early painting, it seems a bit unusual for a Prentice. While Prentice´s

work, like this piece, has a somewhat ´´naïve´´ quality, Prentice´s objects

are usually more solid and sit more comfortably in their space. This

painting, on the other hand, is far more flat than Prentice´s usual work,

and the objects appear drawn rather than painted.

Most artists evolve considerably over their professional life, however, and

it´s often hard to say what early pieces might look like.

Sorry I can´t be of more help.



James E. Hall, Ph.D.
ssteal
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12 years ago
Another contact, another dead end. I contacted Ms. Vara. Maybe something will come of it.



Dear Ms. Teal,

Thank you for contacting me and for sending all the photos. I suggest you contact Renee Vara at Vara Art. You can see their website if you google Renee Vara. They specialize in 20th c art but may guide you to an appropriate person. The number is 212-475-4404 or email info@varaart.com All the best , John

ssteal
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12 years ago
I contact justanswer.com and received the following responses;



Thank you for all the well organized images. They did reach me and your efforts are much appreciated.



This is an amazing work with the back inscription and the notation it suggests it is the work of Levi Wells Prentice (1851 - 1935) but the detail of the leaves, the handling of the basket, the way the paper is painted holding the fruit and the whole composition speak loudly that this is a work by LWP...and a very valuable one at that.



For the last fifteen years the artist´s works have been highly desirable at high end fine art auctions but his still life with fruits of all sorts have been his most appealing and most valuable of his compositions.



This one would have a current market value in the range of 30,000.00-45,000.00 right now at a major auction center (certainly on the East Coast where he was from) but all across the US where his still life work is highly appreciated and paid for in high sums.



The work does have some old restoration or repair done in the classic old style with a wax fill. It was professionally done for its day but today would be stablized, relined and now what is called ´´conserved´´ (a focus on retaining the original integrity of the original and stablizing the work for longevity) as the waxes do harden and deteriorate or bring mold etc. but this one looks quite stable and fine..from the images..you may see it differently on site. If their are issues that I can not see, you may want to show this to a regional conservator who could advise you on how to proceed with such a valuable piece of art. The cost of treatment would be significant 1500.00-2500.00 (USD) but well worth the investment if it were to damage its long term value.



I do know conservators all over the US. If you would like to know of a few museum professionals I would be happy to give you some that are trustworthy to work with you..or look at this, if you tell me the closest large cities to your home.



All my best



Thank you for the follow up. I appreciate it greatly.



My response was based on looking at 224 lots sold in the last 15 years from a subscription site that allows you to zoom in close and compare and contrast hands and styles...and yes I do not agree that his fruit are as you say ´´most of his still lifes are painted on a surface and the fruit is almost outlined and bold´´ His fruit is quite sensitive and subtle..that is why the values and sales are so high for his work. His hand on leaves and the baskets are distinctive..his baskets are not as astute and do stand out for this detail but this is a credible work..and the age of the inscription is early..and working in a museum we see a lot of graphite inscriptions..it maybe not be 1888 but it is very old. (not a later addition to sell a piece)



I have a very detail oriented eye and I don´t know why this would be questioned so highly by this Shannon but I disagree. The composition is similar on Pallette Museum and it would look to be a copy of this if anything...the quality, execution is all not up to the quality of yours...in comparing those two works..you have the master piece and this is a distant relative. (I can not say why there are two out there but the artist was prolific and very regional in his work so he was certainly known and appreciated in his day...he was an art teacher too) As you note, this fits the period of his still life work too.



I would highly encourage you to pursue this authenticity by looking at original works by the artist next to yours. (As well, think about the construction and the details that add clues and a signature of an artist - comparing details such as the canvas (what kind, the size), the stretcher, corner joints, how the paint is applied, thickness, and way it reacts to these old restorations over time, if they have some of the same type of repairs)



You are lucky that there are many museums that hold the artists work so you would just need to call the closest curator to one of your personal options in locations that you list above. Here are the museums that hold Prentice paintings, call and talk to their collections departments or curatorial team (emails are often lost so a call is most useful if you can get through) and make an appointment to meet once you find a collection containing a good amount of his paintings...or still life works. A worthy project for sure.



She pointed me to a number of museums and I spoke to a curator at one who is going to examine the photos and also sent the photos to a curator at another museum. I hope to hear back from them next week.

ssteal
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12 years ago
Vietato:



You are correct. I used a pay an expert service just to see what the response would be, as it was not very expensive to inquire. She was the only ´´expert´´ who responded. I didn´t have a choice of people to ask. I believe when you say you have a question about fine art for instance, it goes to a certain group of people in that field and you receive a response from one person. The good thing was she directed me towards a number of museum specialists. I don´t know how to photo share, but if you would like to see more photos and you are able to post them, them, e-mail me at ssteal@knology.net and I can send you numerous photos.



Regards,



ssteal
Vietato
12 years ago
ssteal, couldn´t you provide us with some larger photos, so we can try to follow the assessments from the justanswer person in particular?



Her wording and style is in accordance with services getting paid for answers, and when I visited the site, I see that it´s the way it works: several experts can answer, and you pay for the answer you like.

And she surely knows how to give you good answers (35-50,000.00 $) [;)]

But she also refers to only one painting from Palettemuseum. I hope that by ´´the distant sibling´´ she means the one from Connecticut. But didn´t she see both?



I think yours and the one from Wales are very close in style and quality, but please put up a larger photo (maybe through a file sharing service) so we can make a fair judgment.



Regards.

Vietato



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ssteal
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12 years ago
Vietato,Thanks for taking the time to look at the photos. As you say, it may not be in the top range. Actually, once a question is answered by the service, the question is closed out. Unless I want to pay to ask the same question to a different expert, what was told to me is all I get. Since I paid only $100 for the painting, any range above that is good by me. I can´t wait to hear back from the museums and let you know what was said. Even if it is worth what the CT. painting is being sold for, I would be happy. My painting is a much better work, in my opinion.Thanks,ssteal
Vietato
12 years ago
I think ´´justanswers´´ works so, that if you do not accept the first answer, the question will be open again for other ´´experts´´. That encourages them to give answers which makes you happy.



I feel confident that even if your painting should be by Prentice, it will not be in the top range quoted. But I only know this artist from photos on auctions that I looked at, so you will hopefully get some objective answers from the museums that you have approached.



Regards,

Vietato



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bluemlein
12 years ago
what was lying on top of it that created those bad cracks along the stretcher lines, i wonder?
TLWilliams
12 years ago
Email kenperenyi@yahoo.com - he is a known forger of Prentice. I suspect that one, or more of these could be his.



Oranges 2 (Connecticut) is a modern crap copy and defo not Prentice. Not even up to Perenyi´s standard.



Oranges 1 - Highly suspicious with a W&N canvas and Welsh framer!! Possible Perenyi.



Yours looks as good as Oranges 1. And I agree, the same hand. Same varnish etc. I´d bet ten bucks Oranges 1 is painted over a British picture. W.C. Roberts were in business at the end of the 19th century - although Prentice had an English wife, I don´t think there´s any evidence to suggest he visited Britain. And if he had visited Britain, why would he go to Swansea to get a painting framed? Why would he even bother painting a still life painting in the UK? If you´re an artist, the reason you travel is to paint the scenery. If you could even get oranges in Swansea in the late 19th century they´d have been expensive and probably rotten! Our still life painters from the same period (Oliver Clare etc) painted Plums/Apples/Strawberries because we can grow those. The other scenario is that someone bought a Prentice from the USA, took it back to Swansea got it framed and then took it back to the USA. Long shot at best.



To me, none of them look like his work. And if I were a forger, Prentice is exactly who I´d target.





Director, Pieta Fine Art Ltd

www.pietafineart.co.uk