Ercole
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12 years ago
I have never pointed out the price of an object on Findartinfo. I sometimes point out a link where has been given, by other people, the price of an object. I don´t have relationships of job with any house of auctions. The rules of the relationship between a house of auctions and a client are on Internet, where they are also the names of the experts that they work for that house of auctions. The price is arranged between the house of auctions and the client. The relationships are regulated by a contract of sale that the client signs. Any suitable price on Findartinfo can be binding for a house of auctions. The forum is a meeting among friends that speak of art.

Fausta

Ercole
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12 years ago
I don´t express well sometimes me, but I use the automatic translator "reverso" and this can cause some incomprehension.

The relationship with a house of auctions happens through following steps:

1 - you send the photo by e-mail and after 30 days around you receive a first evaluation on author and price. Is free. The client is not forced to put the object in the auction, but the house of auctions is not forced to confirm the evaluation done on a photo.

2 - if the client decides to put the object in the auction, he must follow the rule of the house of auctions. Taken direct vision of the object, the house gives the definitive answer on author and price.

3 - the client undersigns a regular contract of sale in which the price is suitable under which the object cannot be sold. In the contract the presentation of the object is specified in the catalog.

This is what I know. And´ clear that any house of auctions it is kept to make the price pointed out by Findartinfo.

An expert nevertheless reads books and magazines, he sees museums, sales on Internet and in television and Findartinfo also follows... because information can be taken anywhere and from whoever.

On Findartinfo I have never given an evaluation of the price, but I sometimes point out a link, where someone other has appraised a similar object, or also the same object.

Therefore, I write in Italian and I translate in English through an automatic system. There is a gentleman that writes in Polish and it makes him translate in English from a friend.

The Indians of America had perhaps invented, with the smoke, a better system to send messages.

Fausta

Ercole
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12 years ago
Today you make me work...

I say that today an expert reads everything, also our conversations on on Findartinfo, because today information pass through the books, the museums, but also through the media, also e-bay, the television, the auctions online. Then the expert makes him his opinion.

If someone desires to have one authentic signed, pay an expert that writes and puts is signature.

The authentic one doesn´t perhaps have any value, for a house of auctions. I don´t know it.

But I tell you that if you buy an object from a sale and then this object is a forgery, the house of auction doesn´t respond any authenticity.

The house of auctions puts in condition the buyer to personally see the object put in sale.

If you buy a Caravaggio, declared as Caravaggio on the catalog, but then the Caravaggio is false, you are not indemnified. Worse for you, that you have not looked at it well, when the house of auctions has shown it, before the sale.

This is my opinion. I hope to have been clear.

Fausta

Vietato
12 years ago
"Any suitable price on Findartinfo can be binding for a house of auctions."

I don´t think you mean that Fausta - because no price mentioned here, or on any other site, can be binding for an auction house.

But I think you are misunderstanding each other (bohdan and Ercole):

Bohdan: Ercole suggested in the post of March 13, that you should have your drawing inspected in natura by a real expert!

And then, after your long (and a bit convoluted) answer, that another possibility would be to hear the opinion from a reputable auction house, through their internet evaluation of photos.

(I don´t believe you have said that you already tried this?)

And Ercole was stressing that she couldn´t help you further with this.

Your post of March 24 has an arrogant twist, that I don´t think was deliberate, but it has upset Ercole quite a lot.

Peace [:X]

Vietato

____________________

[URL="http://e-store.findartinfo.com/myestore.asp?m_id=270"] e-store: Vietato´s Gallery[/URL]


I am webmaster on this: [URL="http://www.arttalk.dk/"]Art Talk - Foredrag om kunst[/URL] (in Danish - about art lectures)
Vietato
12 years ago
I´m getting more confused now Fausta. What do you mean by "And´ clear that any house of auctions it is kept to make the price pointed out by Findartinfo."

Do you mean that auction houses are obliged to match the prices listed for a certain artist at Findartinfo?

Regards,

Vietato

____________________

[URL="http://e-store.findartinfo.com/myestore.asp?m_id=270"] e-store: Vietato´s Gallery[/URL]


I am webmaster on this: [URL="http://www.arttalk.dk/"]Art Talk - Foredrag om kunst[/URL] (in Danish - about art lectures)
bohdan9@tlen.pl
12 years ago


Dear Fausta!

I would rather have my hand cut off than consciously want to hurt your feelings.

You are the nicest person to me on this forum and I have a huge respect for you!

I am going to explain everything to you.

Your letter and the letter of Vietato are in translation.

I greet you all cordially.

Bohdan.


bohdan9@tlen.pl
12 years ago


My dear!

I sincerely hope that my previous statement has convinced you that I didn´t mean to offend anyone.

I think that I must "fade out" the topic of my drawing and put my attention on something new.

Thank you all for your attention, comments and suggestions. Many of them I have already done before.

I wrote to the Museum, the photos were shown in several auction houses, I tried to interest the specialists by the drawing but I remain with no result.

My opinion is that despite the saying "a real art will defend itself", the art with no signature and no provenance might be still art but it´s a bit lifeless and with no soul and it interests hardly anyone.

I´m saying this with no irony because often I´d react the same.

My sensitivity "increases" when I see a great name or an opinion from some "authority".

I´m not surprised then that so many people would consider my drawing as not very interesting because it´s not known who drawn it and where does it come from.

The lack of a proper provenance had often decided that even beautiful things have been questioned.

In my country – where during the revolution, two world wars and changes of borders, the millions of people were abandoning their houses and belongings and taking the houses of other people who had died or abandoned them – to establish what was whose and where it comes from is very often not feasible.

The opinions of authorities often depend on whether they are "our" authorities or "their" authorities.

My "record" – associated with a certain painting – was to show the object to eight following experts and obtain 4 opinions that it´s original and 4 other saying that the originality is excluded.

I´m already old enough to not even get upset by that.

A friend of mine, who visited most of the world´s largest museums, after receiving photos of my drawing was upset that I´m trying to make him admire some irrelevant mannerism.

Oh well, "De gustibus non est disputandum"

I cordially greet everybody and thank you all again for your attention.



Bohdan
Vietato
12 years ago
Well put Bohdan!

Regards,

Vietato

___________________

[URL="http://e-store.findartinfo.com/myestore.asp?m_id=270"] e-store: Vietato´s Gallery[/URL]


I am webmaster on this: [URL="http://www.arttalk.dk/"]Art Talk - Foredrag om kunst[/URL] (in Danish - about art lectures)
bohdan9@tlen.pl
12 years ago
Ercole
  • Ercole
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bohdan9@tlen.pl
11 years ago
Hi,

I keep on putting effort on the analysis of my old drawings. As some of you have lost a lot of time commenting on this topic I feel obliged to provide some new information.

1. Ercole (Fausta) was curious what is under the "patch" on the belly of dead Hero. I unstuck those drawings. There was nothing interesting under the patch. Someone who stuck two drawings and was probably the author of two torsos just improved the "navel of a hero" which was originally drawn in the form of two concentric circles.

2. In the collection of the British Museum, I stumbled at etchings of Bisschop from 1672, included in his work: "Paradigmata Graphices Variorum Artificum". Two of 2them contain figures from my drawing.

It´s an interesting comment of the collection curator which links etching of torsos with drawings made by some patterns of Michelangelo and etching of Heros with drawing by Poelenburch. My poor knowledge of English prevents me from a precise understanding of all descriptions and comments.

I know you may not want to recall what was the story with my drawing, so I enclose a few photos to remind it and links to the British Museum.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=3374867&partId=1&people=132153&peoA=132153-2-60&page=1 

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=3374876&partId=1&people=132153&peoA=132153-2-60&page=1 

If anyone would like to comment #8211; I´d be very grateful.

Regards, Bohdan

TLWilliams
11 years ago
Sorry lack of time to read most of the posts in this thread. Your last post Bohdan is an excellent piece of research.

It poses one major question:

Was the drawing done before or after the two etchings?

If the latter then it´s not important.

If the former, then it´s important.

In the curator´s comments of BM 1850,0810.779 they site an anonymous drawing in the National Gallery of Scotland, Edinburgh, as the nearest representation. You will need to acquire an image of that drawing - I can´t find it in their collection database, but then they might not have catalogued everything online.

I tend to think looking at the position of the two left hand torsos in BM 1850,0810.779 that yours would be a copy after the etching, as the third study in your drawing (which is clearly the second torso in the etching) is done in outline only. I don´t know if de Bisschop used a mirror to transfer onto the etching plate (some artist´s did, some didn´t), perhaps we can find out by looking at other etchings of his, because then we would know whether yours would be a copy after the etching due to it being the right or wrong way round.



Director, Pieta Fine Art Ltd

www.pietafineart.co.uk

bohdan9@tlen.pl
11 years ago


Thank you very much Tim for your opinions and comments. I don´t think I could really do anything about "Edinburgh".

Your belief that the contour and the torso of my drawing was created as a copy of the etching is absolutely likely to be right, even though they differ in the direction of light; well, maybe this is normal.

I have to think about the "mirror" effect because even though I see what you mean, I´m not quite sure how it´s done.

I don´t know if you agree with my initial belief that the form of lying hero still requires further studies because its association with the figure is not as obvious as the case of torsos.

We don´t know who, why and when glued them together. It also seems that the original "round navel" cannot be paired so easily with the etching as the "base" of the drawing.

Anyway, I am very grateful for your time and I accept your balanced opinions and suggestions with a great respect.

Bohdan

Ercole
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10 years ago
I think that the drawing is a preparation to the etching. If it is not so, why it has been cut and then done glue? There are a lot of techniques to transfer a drawing from a paper to another paper. Suggestion to study a manual of technique of the etching. The enigma is to a large extent resolved.

Fausta

bohdan9@tlen.pl
10 years ago


Hello Fausta,

Thank you very much for your feedback. The problem is the more I "discover and solve" the more new questions appear. I suspect I should accept Tim´s suggestion that my drawing was made as an exercise based on Bisschop´s etchings and only to make it harder the lights and shadows were changed.

I confirmed that Bisschop used to apply transfers to the plate in both ways #8211; mirror reflection and original drawing #8211; but I can´t interpret it.

Studying the techniques of etching in subsequent centuries is not for me anymore. I´m getting too lazy at my age.

I greet you and thank you.


Bohdan