wolkenblau
12 years ago
it seems too sad that this subject should dissapear unanswered. i can´t elude the fascination by this fragment of fragments and it´s obvious artistic merit and still hope to read some insightful comments from some of the very smart members of this forum. or could you please explain why the subject remained neglected? thank you
TLWilliams
12 years ago
Christ, I´m actually going insane. I can´t believe I´m even contemplating the thought, but does anyone have a copy of this to hand:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dictionary-Michelangelos-Watermarks-Jane-Roberts/dp/B0006ESBKG 

Ruling out the obvious would be a start.... I have to say though, that there´s a strong nod here to the belvedere torso, as well as some notable deposition studies.....



www.pietafineart.com


Old Masters, New Eyes

Fine Art Gallery, Brighton Museum & Art Gallery

11 July 2007 - 10 February 2008

http://www.virtualmuseum.info/press/103.asp 

TLWilliams
12 years ago
Wow. Hadn´t seen this post, good bump.

We can date it and place it fairly accurately from the watermark to central Italy circa 1590 - the style, execution and subject are bang on for this date too.

http://www.gravell.org/Record.php?&action=GET&RECID=5378&offset=372&rectotal=1014&query=SELECT%20DISTINCT%20 *%20FROM%20records%20WHERE%20MATCH%20%28S_DESC%29%20AGAINST%20%28%27%20\%22crown\%22%27%20IN%20BOOLEAN%20MODE%29%20ORDER%20BY%20YEAROFUSE

The study on the left appears as though it might be a study for a deposition/lamentation as we see a supporting hand in the right armpit, however the muscular and nude torso would perhaps suggest a figure from mythology. Saintluc´s better with Italian baroque than I am, but I´ll try and do some digging. My immediate reaction to seeing this was a serious artist.



www.pietafineart.com

Old Masters, New Eyes

Fine Art Gallery, Brighton Museum & Art Gallery

11 July 2007 - 10 February 2008

http://www.virtualmuseum.info/press/103.asp 

saintluc
12 years ago
More than the Belvedere torso- That is already finely observed- it is more a study after an unknow (for me) version of the Herakles Epitrapesios by Lysippus.

http://www.louvre.fr/llv/activite/detail_parcours.jsp?CURRENT_LLV_PARCOURS%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673407387&CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673407405&CURRENT_LLV_CHEMINEMENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673407405&bmLocale=en 

http://www.artmuseum.gov.mo/photodetail.asp?productkey=2008041201118&lc=3 

http://www.tibursuperbum.it/ita/monumenti/tempioercole/EracleSeduto.htm 

But I want to answer to wolkenblau. I myself neglected this post because I don´t like very much when an answer to a preceding post remains ignored by the same member

http://forum.findartinfo.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7902 
bohdan9@tlen.pl
12 years ago
Sorry. Excuse me Saintluc, Williams and Wolkenblau. I have trouble. Give me two days.[:I]

Bohdan.
bohdan9@tlen.pl
12 years ago


Dear Friends!

When the amount of years is bigger than the amount of money that one has, some trouble are inevitable. Whenever I complain about being old, a friend of mine comforts me saying: "don´t worry, nothing lasts forever". He´s right. You are right too, SAINLUC when you´re angry at me for not thanking you for your wonderful and such relevant reviews. I am grateful and I do admire them.

I am just lost in my duties. SHAWNSTER in his comment to our discussion about my first topic – "Old drawing" – asked me (and You) how old the actual drawing could be and I had no idea what to reply, so I thought maybe you might suggest something. I took the lack of your reaction as a proof that you had enough of that topic – and your long muteness about "second old drawing" only confirmed my conviction.

Please consider that I don´t really speak english and every "action" means: writing, sending to translation, accepting the costs, outsourcing and… waiting for an answer – that´s a lot of stress for such an oldie as me. I´m willing once again to apologize, hoping you´re going to forgive me.

Talking about the current topic: your suggestions seems to be brilliant to me.

I failed to meet "Hercules" for a whole year – while it´s just a bang on!

Just like WILLIAMS, I used to think that torsos concern "Torso Belvedere".

It surprised me why such a good drawer could not give them the proper direction just like Rubens did. I only have Michelangelo left with his study of Pieta :

http://arts-graphiques.louvre.fr/fo/visite?srv=mipe¶mAction=actionGetImage&idImgPrinc=1&idFicheOeuvre=1239&provenance=mlo&searchIn 

Michelangelo had plenty of followers and they could reply the themes of his drawings during their studies or... produce forgeries. Or maybe hmm… in the "Medici gardens" there was some "Hercules" lying with his leg cut off while a young teenage boy was learning how to draw antique sculptures[?][:D][:I] What would you say about that?



Time for few words for WILLIAMS. I am very grateful for your emotions and comments. There´s no "my" watermark in the book of mrs J.R. but your impression that it must to be checked was very righteous.

You have no idea what a pleasure for me is the fact that you like my drawing, thank you for all your comments. They help increasing our "common knowledge" about the topic and I am not going to forget that we own it to you.


Last but not least WOLKENBLAU! You are my angel. It was you who cheered me up saying my "japanese–style pastel" is not a daub. I´m not joking! It´s very important to me. Who knows if without your impact I´d still be writing new topics – certainly this discussion wouldn´t take place because only by myself I wouldn´t dare to bring back my topic to the top of the list. Thank you.

My best regards for all of you. I ask for understanding and I´m counting on your forthcoming ideas and opinions.

Bohdan
bohdan9@tlen.pl
12 years ago
My God! Wolkenblau! You are wonderful! Thank you very much for your encouragement! [:D]

And now, my earlier letter:

Hoping to interest somebody with our discussion, I´m sending a few of my additional opinions and observations.

Let me start from a general comment. I live long enough to consider it very unlikely to have a possibility to establish the author of the drawing or even precise period of the creation – which doesn´t mean we can´t discuss nor have some hypothesis, even if they seem to be crazy sometimes.

According to me there are two parts that of this drawing. To the page of size 145 x 184 mm (with watermark)

including: contour the torso (right side) and full torso - the study of the Pieta is attached,

cut from another drawing, which was traced with the red ink (?).(the trace marks are

visible on the left). The paper seems to be the same on both sides.

The contour of the torso doesn´t present the mastery of the full torso and both of them can´t compete with the beauty of the study of Pieta that was probably created later.

The zoom at the spot on the upper edge of the drawing let us see in the UV some kind of traces of tiny

(1 mm) writing ("....+ 4")?



I looked through several thousand watermarks and thousands of drawings. I haven´t found

"my" watermark and the technique of drawing according to my amateur eye I associate

only with Michelangelo (or his follower).


The proportions of the middle torso are not exactly anatomically correct (mannerist?) but...

even Michelangelo used to be accused of that. He used to reply that the proportions depend on the point of the drawer is looking.

They say Michelangelo drew thousands of drawings but nowadays only few hundreds of them are known because he was destroying them after use to paint the frescoes.

According to me the drawing has a certain admiration of a male body, "sensitivity" even – in the way of drawing

masculine "attributes" (?!) which would not be strange at Michelangelo.

Best regards.

Bohdan.

wolkenblau
12 years ago
reading so many fascinating posts i feel like a kid in a candy shop - thank you so much and please don´t stop at this point.

Saintluc, i really have to thank you for showing me the Herakles Epitrapesios. i´m ashamed to say i didn´t know that statue. i think Winkelmann didn´t mention it and the best known ancient statues for any german are still those described by him. but no excuse.

how about the study on the left? it seems to me like the artist devoted even a little more attention to that.

if i understand the english terms "deposition/lamentation" correctly i think you are right as always, Tim. that must be in this study´s genetic code.

would you agree that there might be something added: a "pagan" or pre-christian quality of the head in particular?

another thing i find striking about the left study is how the right shoulder and arm with the supporting hand seem not quite right.

and exactly here comes Bohdan with michelangelo´s pieta-study, that shows how the artist gave two more efforts to exactly that detail one also showing a strong bicebs turned in our direction.


could you please, please see if you find some more enlightening things . it´s so rare that a piece of art of this quality shows up in this forum?



P.S. Bohdan, hope you could solve your problems. when you wrote you had trouble my first thought was that you had been arrested for stealing a beautiful and mysterious old drawing from the archive of some museum.
bohdan9@tlen.pl
12 years ago


It seems to me that no one will join to the further discussion. It makes me sad [:(] but I understand that reading my amateur ideas is not very attractive and takes time.

I could use an advice if there´s anything else I could do or if I just should enjoy having an interesting drawing[:)]

Perhaps no one else is going to reply now so I would like to express heartfelt thanks to everyone who took part in this discussion, especially to Saintluc and Williams whose comments are priceless to me.

Wolkenblau! Thank you for your kind sings of interest.



Greetings and regards to everybody

Bohdan
TLWilliams
12 years ago
Hi Bohdan,

Your ideas are not amateur, this is a serious drawing deserves serious study. I know for a fact that members on this forum like myself, Saintluc, Wasbach, Zenzen, Impasto etc will not forget a post, even if it hasn´t been updated. Certainly my mind is constantly processing images and information and this forum is just a tiny percentage of that, but when we link it to another process we come back to the forum with more information - often months and years can go buy and then we have an answer!

There are a few posts on this forum that I believe warrant serious study and this is one. Regrettably I am not a man of leisure or means so my time is mostly spent trying to pay the bills and not doing the things I´d rather be doing. I have maybe 100 important research projects of my own that are all unfinished and maybe one day I will have the time to complete them! I give time to this forum because it is rare to find a forum on the internet with a community of real experts (which some members are) - and for me it´s a quid pro quo as I often need help - I wish I could spend more time helping some members, but everyday there are new posts and then you forget the ones you meant to follow up.

To take this further it would be necessary to visit many archives and institutions and may prove expensive - plus we would need all the information you have, provenance, opinions of experts you´ve consulted etc. I will help you as much as I can, but I´m limited with what I can do without going to London.

The first thing I would ask is for an image of the back?


Director, Pieta Fine Art Ltd

www.pietafineart.com

bohdan9@tlen.pl
12 years ago


Hello Tim,



Thank you very much for your explanations and opinions. I know how much effort you need to explain such a complex matter as the dating, origin or authorship of the old drawings and I know that sometimes it´s not even possible.

That is why with a real gratitude I take your letter, where you don´t deny a sense to my hypotheses and consider them to be material that could contribute to finding the right answer, even if only partially.

I´m already 72 years old and I´m a retired economist who – unfortunately – must continue to work so I perfectly understand the situation you and the other experts are.

You cannot just quit taking care of your matters and professional duties to make some extremely laborious research, even if the object is worth it.

However, one can expect that some cases of your everyday work related with art might – although don´t have to – explain something extra.

A great example of such a – lucky for me – coincidence was the knowledge and opinion of Saintluc.

I would never come up with the idea of "Herakles Epitrapesios" by myself (till the last day of my life).

I´m also counting on forbearance with my lack of knowledge of English and the need of using translator, which certainly hampers the efficiency of my contacts with you and sometimes might raise suspicions that I lack good manners and I ignore you. Nothing could be wrong more than that impression.

I attach a photo of the verso of the daring to my letter.

Because it seems to me that you´d like to see how the paper is stuck, I attach a photo of drawing with the indication of visible and invisible edges of individual papers.

(Note: some of the gluing is so masterfully done that they´re not visible, while some others are quite slovenly, there are also some creases that look like gluing).

I greet you cordially

Bohdan


ZenZen
  • ZenZen
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12 years ago
I thought I would bump this intriguing post again.

Regards,

ZenZen
bohdan9@tlen.pl
12 years ago
Hi Fausta and ZenZen!

Thank you very much for your attention.

I need some time to answer.

By the way the question:

Who knows when they began to make paper is not thicker than 0.1 mm.

Sorry for my English.


Regards.

Bohdan
Ercole
  • Ercole
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12 years ago
We don´t know when the two fragments of paper have been united. Does it deal with the same quality of paper? They could not detach, to see if under there is something? Or could the separation damage them?

The line of cut of the two pieces of paper is very curious. The two sketches could have been done in different times, and then approached for comparing them.

It seems that the toward of filigree doesn´t correspond, as if a sketch has been made with a different inclination.

Fausta

http://www.ippolitonievo.info 

web master
Ercole
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12 years ago
Then, two different artists. The second artist approaches the sketch of the first artist, to inspire him and to compare him. However, also to me it seems that the torso with the reclined head both of a happier hand. Or don´t I have well understands?

I believe that in Rome there is highly specialized centers, in degree to detach the two sheets. I know that in Vaticano they make extraordinary things.

Regards
Fausta

http://www.ippolitonievo.info 

web master
Ercole
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12 years ago
If I am not wrong me, this is the image of the sketch of Michelangelo for the Pity, to the Christchurch in Oxford.

I would want a comparison between this and our sketch (image to the left).

Among the two, ours seems me more next to the hand of Michelangelo.

http://artintheblood.typepad.com/.a/6a0120a570a392970b0133ecd7d7f9970b-pi 

I believe that the sketch of right, drawn by the statue of Ercole of Lisippo, it is not of Michelangelo. This is an opinion. I am not an expert of Michelangelo. Mine is rather a feeling.

Fausta

http://www.ippolitonievo.info 

web master
wolkenblau
12 years ago
Hello Bohdan.

I seem to have misunderstood something: when Saintluc introduced the Héraclès Epitrapezios I thought he was refering to the torsos on the right. Maybe some other members, who have read this thread were under the same impression.


Your vision of the figure on the left being a merrily drunk Hercules is so charming that I would love to see it in that light.

My eyes, however, can not be convinced not to see a sort of silent dynamics of pain or suffering (I´m not at all sure I know what I mean). In addition to the pieta-motif my first idea was a certain congeniality with the Laokoon group (side-inverted) in the before mentioned dynamics of pain. I say this rather shyly as the Laokoon group is probably the bestknown of sculptures, so it may look like I´m just seeing this relationship for lack of knowing other examples.

However if the drawing is to be placed in the 1500s it´s only natural that any artist should have had a small Laokoon in the back of his head.



P.S. you haven´t told us anything about the provenance of your drawing - I hope that doesn´t mean my assumption was right. 😉
bohdan9@tlen.pl
12 years ago


Hi Fausta!

Your comments inspired me to re-examine the picture.

The results are as follows:

I wrote earlier that there was oddly-cropped picture of "Pieta" glued at the paper with

torsos - and in my opinion it was done later and the papers are very similar.

Thanks to your insight and the great previous review by Saitluc (greeting for him) I change these hypotheses.

I think there are reasons to believe that at the sheet of paper with torsos there was glued the earlier (!!!) and a much better drawing of Heracles Epitrapenzis and that he´s not dead, only "well drunk" and enjoys the well-deserved sleep.

The papers of both drawings are almost identical - but please note: "almost"!

They fluoresce slightly different way in the UV and there´s (as well: "almost") different sanguine used to draw them.

The sanguine and the paper with "torsos" (according to me) are identical with a rectangular patch that covers Heracles navel area - apparently someone having the drawing of torsos (perhaps made by his own hand) used it and "attached" Heracles there to increase the

attractiveness of the "whole object", patching Heracles in this masterly way.

I haven´t tried to unstick anything because it´s almost sure it would get destroyed.

Various stains on the paper with "torsos" make an irresistible impression that the author of gluing wanted to remove all traces that could identify torsos as the work of his own or another artist different than an author of "Heracles".

The analysis of three stains shown on the attached pictures suggests that there were visible letters or numbers beneath them. I do know that our brains are able to "see things that don´t excist."

I leave it to your own judgement.

The photos that I use are from 1 up to 25 MB so I can see everything clearer but I did everything to let you see what I´m talking about.

In summary, I believe that the most important issue worth clarifying is the drawing of Heracles.

To explain this I will use a music analogy: the torsos are... Salieri (so not just anybody)

- but Heracles is... Mozart!

Historical Note:

As far as I remember, after Michelangelo´s death, his colleagues were involved in selling those very requested works of his because they very expensive and every now and then they would "increase a little" the amount of them.

That´s probably way to these days some historicans of art find it hard to defense the authenticity of some objects from their collections.

Fausta! Thank you for the inspiration to think.

ZenZen! I like the name "intriguing"!

Williams! Good luck in the implementation of 100 projects.

Wolkenblau! I am glad that you like to read this topic.

Saintluc! As usual... "chapeau bas" for your knowledge!

Thanks agein to all.

Regards.

Bohdan.

Description of the images:

1.uvd - district of "patches" and both papers (UV)

2.plama+4- The stain ("arrow" and "4") (UV)

3.uvz -The stain (the "Z" letter) (UV)

4.mich.podcz.- Infrared (area of the watermark and the "Fn"(?) letters)





bohdan9@tlen.pl
12 years ago
Perhaps, really I misunderstood the opinion of Saintluc?

I have to think about it again ..

My translator returns to Warsaw a few days.

Thank you all and best regards.

Bohdan.

Carisi
  • Carisi
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12 years ago
Hey Guys

It´s a drawing pen & brown ink or it´s an etching a la sanguine?

If is a drawing probably it´s from The Genoese school ( Ligurian School Italy) 17th century from the collection of Father Sebastiano Resta? (Sagredo Borghese Album)

This drawing probably is part of the so-called Borghese Sagredo-album, an album of drawings gathered and dismantled by a collector of 18th century. I don´t know if it could be attribuited to the Castiglione called il Grechetto or the son to be found out...Cheers

Carisi


quote:
Originally posted by bohdan9@tlen.pl


Paper 145x230 mm (consist of four papers glued).

Watermark (crown, circle, letter "V")


Maybe someone knows the watermark?

What do You think about it ?

Thank You in advance for Your comments.

Bohdan.

Attached Photos: Front, UVfront, Watermark.


Carisi
  • Carisi
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12 years ago
Hi Wolkenblau

Yes it´s me...

Cheers

quote:
Originally posted by wolkenblau


Hello Carisi,

is this you?:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200668517586 


Carisi
  • Carisi
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12 years ago
Hi Bohdan

Nothing to do with my personal marketing...It was just a suggestion that perhaps it could help you to find out from where this drawing come from though in this Sagredo Borghese album was plenty of drawings like yours and mine... That´all...

The Marketing for this type of art drawings in my possession it´s Christie´s who it does.. Certainly not Ebay ....Or an art forum....

Cheers

quote:
Originally posted by bohdan9@tlen.pl


Hi Carisi!

I think that it is your personal marketing and has no connection with my red chalk drawing .Am I wrong? Good luck.

Cheers!

Bohdan


bohdan9@tlen.pl
12 years ago
Hi Carisi!

I think that it is your personal marketing and has no connection with my red chalk drawing .Am I wrong? Good luck.

Cheers!

Bohdan
bohdan9@tlen.pl
12 years ago
Hi idailey,


!950 ?????

Regards.
idailey
12 years ago
I think that judging from the watermark, this could be spot on for Central Italy Circa 1950 and that would be a fair judgement considering how specific with the style it is.

I have to agree, it was best to have been discovered still because the artistry is such magnificent display of class. It is just great how things are unraveled this way.
bohdan9@tlen.pl
12 years ago
Hi Wolkenblau!

I tried to send to an e-mail you via findartinfo but it´s been returned. Maybe you have some outdated mail at the Forum?



or maybe you don´t want to receive anything? (of course I accept your decisions in this matter).

I don´t know the rules of this forum. It seems to me that ADMIN may not tolerate contacts of the members outside the Forum.

I understand this. If we contact each other directly, this Forum will become less attractive.

(Halo, ADMIN: If you read this, please let me know about that. Thanks in advance!

This is important for the transmission of images larger than 150 KB)

Hello Fausta!

Thank you for your comments. You are nice, objective and you have a lot of empathy. It´s a little hard for me to understand you precisely (quite often the other as well) because I translate you letters by myself due to financial reasons and I only use the service of an interpreter when I´m writing to you. As for no, I can only say that unfortunately I don´t have such nice friends in Vatican as you do [:)]


Dear Wolkenblau!

Your comments are very interesting. Writing the letter which you´re commenting I meant the opinion of Saintluc:

" More than the Belvedere torso- That is already finely observed- it is more a study after an unknow (for me) version of the Herakles Epitrapesios by Lysippus."

"..unknow (for me) version.." hm..

Because in the drawings of torsos I haven´t seen any "special" version, I thought, perhaps wrongly, that it refers to the figure on the left which I called "pieta"..


My belief was even stronger because of the left leg sharply cut off, just like it appears in the sculpture of Hercakles Epitrapezios and the left hand directed upward as if it was still holding a small column.

I had some little problems with the "hand under his armpit" but my imagination is reliable.[8D]

Have you ever been helping a colleague who happened to drink few sips of wine than he really sould? If so than it´s your hand on that drawing [;)]

If an artist got the sitting Heracles "drunk" and "laid him on his back", he might have also had some mercy to upheld him under his arm??

If I just made you laugh it´s because I like you.



Saintluc could explain this but to my misfortune I´ve unwittingly offended him with something and we have no influence at that.

I admire his knowledge and I respect the freedom of ignoring just anyone he wants to ignore. He´s like "Rome" (Roma locuta, causa finita).

In some way I´m not surprised. My crazy ideas may upset indeed.

I think that the drawings of torsos and Heracles (Pieta?) could be considered separately. Eventually it´s better to have two interesting drawings than one. Then we will need the Fausta´s information about the Vatican specialists.

(Maybe you would like to have one? Which one?)[;)]

Before writing the letter that you´re commenting, for the long time I was watching the drawing of Pieta from Louvre, my drawing and the Laocoon´s Group.

My thoughts also went the clue which you´re pointing but I´ve actually seen more suffering and death seen in Piets and Laocoon than in my invalid without leg.

Either way some - rather not accidental - connections between study of Pieta from Louvre and my drawing of a figure on the left ...are INTRIGUING.

Thank you and all who are honored this topic with their attention.

Regards

Bohdan

Ercole
  • Ercole
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12 years ago
Thanks of the polite words. I have the same difficulty with the English language, and I use the automatic translator www.reverso.com

Many years ago I frequented the course of Paleografia and Diplomatica, at the Vatican Archivio. I don´t have today contacts, but I know that, to the Library Vaticana, works Mrs Iatta, married Midulla, that is an experienced on the study and the maintenance of the manuscripts.

The sketch is constituted by two parts. The part of right, drift from the famous sculpture Eracle of Lisippo.

The part of left, drift from the Pity Rondanini of Michelangelo, that was a lot of times modified by the sculptor and ever ended.

The hand under the armpit is that of the Virgo Maria, that stops the body of Christ. There are a lot of Pities (oil on canvas), of the end of the 16 century, that they show the figure of Christ with the body in erect position, turned toward the spectator, and sustained by the hand of the Virgo under the armpit.

I would not give a lot of importance to the leg cut of sketch of left, because what it cares is the position of the body. The reclined head is michelangiolesca.

My hypothesis is that the sketch of right has been done taking to model the body of Christ of the sketch of left, but that in the same sketch it is visible the derivation from the sculpture of Lisippo.

Not all the sketches prepare a following work (sculpture, painting etc.) they are often simple studies, exercises.

Fausta

http://www.ippolitonievo.info 

web master
Admin
  • Admin
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12 years ago
Hi Bohdan,

We made a test and could send email easily. Please ask her/him to check mailbox and try again.

Thanks!

Admin

Quote:

Originally posted by bohdan9@tlen.pl


Hi Wolkenblau!



I tried to send to an e-mail you via findartinfo but it´s been returned. Maybe you have some outdated mail at the Forum?

or maybe you don´t want to receive anything? (of course I accept your decisions in this matter).

I don´t know the rules of this forum. It seems to me that ADMIN may not tolerate contacts of the members outside the Forum.

I understand this. If we contact each other directly, this Forum will become less attractive.

(Halo, ADMIN: If you read this, please let me know about that. Thanks in advance!

bohdan9@tlen.pl
12 years ago


Hey Admin,

Unfortunately, subsequent attempts of sending an e-mail via findartinfo have failed.

The e-mails keep on coming back to me with this message:

"This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.

Delivery to the following recipients failed."

After this communique there´s a direct e-mail address "Wolkenblau".

Does using it require your approval? I´ve had some unpleasant experiences.

Thanks in advance for clarifying it.



Halo Fausta, Carisi, Idailey !

Thank you very much for the interesting information. I would be very grateful for any links that would help me to better understand your suggestions.

Kind regards

Dear wolkenblau

Help me explain the case of paper thickness (0.12 mm)??

Thank you very much.

Bohdan.
bohdan9@tlen.pl
12 years ago
Hello wolkenblau,

I do not know this site.

Thank you for your help and I wish you a nice day.

Bohdan

P.s. Mail via findartinfo? : [V]
bohdan9@tlen.pl
12 years ago


Interesting work related to the subject of attribution old drawings:

http://karlzipser.com/michelangelo1-short.html 

Regards.
wolkenblau
12 years ago
Hello Bohdan,

I have had no luck so far with the association of paper-historians. I only have a phonenumber but they seem not to answer any calls directly but call back. However I was not at home everytime they called (twice).

Have you seen this?

www.paperhistory.org



This page shows international contact data, so next week I´ll try the Swiss museum.

P.S. I have received no e-mails via findartinfo, neither from you nor from administration.

Ercole
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12 years ago
On the iconografia of the Pity, I have found this painting of Antonio Viviani, a "seguace" of Federico Barocci, that the Pity of Michelangelo, that is in Florence, takes back. To notice the hand under the armpit.

http://fe.fondazionezeri.unibo.it/catalogo/scheda.jsp?decorator=layout&apply=true&tipo_scheda=OA&id=33876&titolo=Viviani+Antonio%0a%09%09%09+ (Sordo)%0a%09%09%09+%2c+Piet%e0

Fausta

http://www.ippolitonievo.info 

web master
bohdan9@tlen.pl
12 years ago


thank you very much Fausta

Have a nice day.[:)]
Bohdan.
Admin
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12 years ago
Hi Bohdan,

We made a test by sending you an email from username "myartlove" with title "Sent from Ask about Art by myartlove" which you already replied on Wednesday 23 Nov, 11. Therefore, you can communicate directly with each other without any problem. Please check with your friend about his email address.



Thanks!

Admin

quote:
Originally posted by bohdan9@tlen.pl




Hey Admin,

Unfortunately, subsequent attempts of sending an e-mail via findartinfo have failed.

The e-mails keep on coming back to me with this message:

"This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.

Delivery to the following recipients failed."

After this communique there´s a direct e-mail address "Wolkenblau".

Does using it require your approval? I´ve had some unpleasant experiences.

Thanks in advance for clarifying it.

Bohdan.


bohdan9@tlen.pl
12 years ago
Thank you Admin[:)]

Regards.
Bohdan
bohdan9@tlen.pl
12 years ago


My dear!



I was going to summarize our discussion but I came to the conclusion that I don´t have proper competences to do that.

Thanks to everyone who gave their time and posted their comments. I greet everybody in the order in which they took a part if the discussion: Wolkenblau, Tl Williams, Saintluc, ZenZen, Ercole (Fausta), Carisi, Idailey.

If "I have enough of life" to keep on trying, I will – but it´s a "Sisyphean task" for the amateur.

Nice and people-friendly Fausta (if I understand her well) suggests not to pay attention to the fact that the leg of lying figure (left side of a drawing) is "cut off". I don´t agree with that point of view.

The drawing clearly suggests that it was a sculpture that was drawn - a sculpture that used to exist or maybe still exists somewhere.

In my opinion that´s an important clue. I would be very grateful to Santluc If he would write whether his very interesting hypothesis about Heracles relates only to torsos (as it was understood by Wolkenblau) or also to the figure on the left side as it´s stated by me.

My dream is to get some competent and credible hypotheses which would let me sell the drawing well.

Maybe I shouldn´t be writing it – but it is obvious that I would share the obtained sale amount with the author (or authors) of such elaboration.

I wish you all good health and success at your work.

Bohdan.


bohdan9@tlen.pl
12 years ago
Hi Fausta!

Thank you very much for your information and memory.

I wish you all the best.

Bohdan
bohdan9@tlen.pl
12 years ago
Hello to everyone who was interested in my drawing!!!

In the discussion about it I insisted that this part (which I attach to remind), was inspired by a sculpture that is there or used to be there.



Using the #8203;#8203;Saintluc´s idea I was joking that it might not present the Pieta but a "drunken Heracles" instead.

Watching one of the drawings at the Biblioteca Ambrosiana (attributed to Rubens) I found this text:

"Provenance Sebastiano Resta, 1684.

Notes on Attribution

Resta attributed this study, after a now lost antique sculpture, to Rubens. Julius Held (1964) suggests that the subject might represent the theme of the drunken Hercules. Held (1964) also proposes dating the sheet to 1606-08."

I´m glad that Tim Williams was right when he comforted me that my amateur suggestions are not necessarily meaningless.

Greetings to everybody.

Bohdan

http://italnet.library.nd.edu/ambrosiana/webpubsql_ambros_eng.pl?email=no&totalrows=4&firstrec=3&artist=&title=hercules+&media=&description=&p 
bohdan9@tlen.pl
12 years ago
Genau Dear Wolkenblau. Thank You.

In this case only the text is important but it´s probably worth it to take a look around in the circle of Rubens.

In my opinion there´s a large technical convergence between my drawing and the one on the attached photograph by Rubens.

Regards

Bohdan
Ercole
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12 years ago
Rubens has painted, in various versions, the "Deposition from the Cross." But it needs to add that to these famous works many artists are inspired then. The power and the strength of this sketch it implies the hand of a great artist. But who?


http://www.google.it/search?hl=it&gs_nf=1&pq=rubens+deposizione+dalla+croce&cp=32&gs_id=b&xhr=t&q=%22rubens+deposizione+dalla+croce%22&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1280&bih=622&wrapid=tljp133145619331202&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=xGhcT7L3LYTPtAaT4biRDA 

Fausta

bohdan9@tlen.pl
12 years ago


Dear Fausta,

When I write about the circles of Rubens or Michelangelo I´m not suggesting that any of them might be the author of my drawing but I also have no reasons to totally rule out such possibility (well, it could be 1% chance or much less).

Not having the necessary knowledge I´m guided only by logic.

If it is true that Michelangelo had destroyed thousands of his drawings because he wasn´t satisfied with them then on what basis it can be concluded that the new object - if it is well drawn - is completely different from what… no one knows?

Writing about the "circle" I also mean everybody who collaborated with the geniuses in any form or imitated them purposely without revealing their authorship.

Rubens during his italian-period has developed hundreds of drawings and sculptures and supposedly he was ordering drawn copies of various works from the other artists wanting to have an archive of artifacts over which he worked for a long time and which he was matching to his own style and his own artistic visions. All of that I consider as the "circle". At the same time for me it doesn´t seem to go along well to juxtapose with the "Pieta" or "Removal from the cross".

Athletic body of Hero with no sign of a exhaustive suffering makes the Saintluc´s vision (Heracles) more familiar to mine.

Although I have for you – as for person friendly to people – a favor to ask:

If you encounter a picture in which the contour is drawn similar to the left (anatomical) side of my hero, please let me know.

Please note that it´s "drawn" with the light which might be a reflection of the convexities at the sculpture.

There are hardly any clear contour lines as those at Michelangelo. It might be an interesting clue (if it´s found).

I attach photo where you can see more details .

I sent my regards and I wish you a beautiful and fast spring.

Bohdan.



Ercole
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12 years ago
Have you wondered because so many ancient paintings, and few ancient sketches exist?

The painting was the final result, instead the sketch was the study, the idea, the beginning.

A lot of paintings, but few sketches are preserved.

We have many paintings of secondary authors and school and few paintings of great Maestri; contrarily we have few sketches of secondary authors and many sketches of great Maestri.

The sketch has been collected by few collectors, but careful and demanding, that discarded the sketch of non important author.

In the attribution of a sketch it is also important to know from what Collection originates.

According to my opinion, your sketch must have examined, from the truth, from a true expert. With the photos we can do little.

Fausta

bohdan9@tlen.pl
12 years ago


Dear Fausta!

A long time ago, when the Forum was forming, one of the experts advised us, amateurs, to be stubborn and individually gather the knowledge about paintings if we are convinced that the initial opinions of specialists are not proper. Specialists have no time to look for months for informations but if we gather it they might take it into account.

This point of view seemed right to me therefore I kept on trying on this Forum as well as on the other places to gather various informations.

The achievements of this work isn´t any big. I failed to identify the watermark. I couldn´t even establish since when they were producing such thin papers as mine (0.12 mm). Was it maybe only from the XVIII century?



People watching the drawing and having great knowledge about art would divide for enthusiasts full of admiration for the masterpiece and indifferent who claimed that this is nothing unusual and it´s probably a student´s study drawn by someone who has studied Michelangelo´s sculptures, rather in the XVIII century (?!).

I am myself rather among the enthusiasts – but the moderate ones.

I´m among the enthusiasts because one of the diligently studying the drawings and sculptures of Michelangelo was… a man called Michelangelo or Rubens.[:D]

However, my moderation comes from the fact that I see how different are the drawings of Michelangelo comparing to i.e Leonardo.

Michelangelo was drawing great but his drawings present a beautiful (maybe even too sophisticated) "architecture of the body". These are beautiful "basilicas" in which nobody really prays, suffers nor loves – and I believe that Michelangelo felt the same lack of it and that´s why he destroyed them… but hadn´t destroyed mine [;)]

Experts have a problem because nowadays there are no objects to compare to this type of figures. (I´d like to remind by the way that similar aesthetic doubts were expressed by Renoir after his return from Italy - he said he´s had enough of watching these huge muscular bodies of Michael).

That´s why I´m skeptical about the possibility of finding a specialist who would be willing to examine my Hercules (Hello there, Siaintluc!)

I don´t know anyone like that anyway – but I am grateful to everyone who made any comments, especially Tim who reacted so spontaneously, You and Wolkenblau for his sincere interest.

I hope you wouldn´t accuse me of prejudging anything about the author of the drawing.

I just put a hypothesis and try to falsify it because that´s the logical mode of exploration.

Regards to everybody.

Bohdan

Ercole
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12 years ago
Do you remember the old film of Disney "Fantasy"?

An episode was entitled (in Italy) "Apprentice wizard."

The history is this: the magician goes away and the young apprentice ago many troubles. Then the magician returns and puts again everything to place. [:)]

Sometimes seem me to be a "apprentice wizard" [8D], but... I always try to understand, and I am often right.

But there is a point over which I cannot go.

I know that some great houses of auction damage an opinion in photos base. The opinion is free and the owner doesn´t hock to put the work in sale. Also this road you can cross, if you want.

The sketch is beautiful and it has aroused the curiosity of many adherent to the forum. [:)]

Fausta

bohdan9@tlen.pl
12 years ago


Dear Fausta!

Your trust in people is equal to the trust in the computer translators.

My young translator sometimes automatically translates your text back to italian (because he speaks it a little as well) and then from these two versions he tries to figure out the one for me but we´re still not always sure if what we get it was you´re trying to say.

Should I understand that you advise me to accept the proposal of one of the world-famous auction houses when they offer taking my drawing to sell for 500 to 1000 $ because it´s authorship isn´t found out?

If I misunderstand you, please talk to me in italian to my e-mail (bohdan9@tlen.pl).

Regards

Bohdan